The Best Logical Argument For God

[r0ckyreed]

I have recently been conversing with atheists on the existence of God. It’s amazing how closed minded atheists are. It’s even more disgusting than fundamentalists. 

I came up with my own arguments. But I still think that out of all the arguments, the contingency argument is the best. Here’s my version of the contingency argument:

1. Either reality exists necessarily or it is contingent.

2. If reality is contingent, then there must be something beyond it that explains why reality exists.

3. But “something beyond reality” is incoherent, since reality includes everything that exists.

4. Furthermore, if reality were entirely contingent, then the structures of logic, science, and rationality we rely on would themselves be contingent and arbitrary, undermining any confidence we have in rational thought itself.

5. Therefore, reality cannot be contingent and must exist necessarily.

6. This necessary reality is the uncaused, self-existent ground of all being, which is referred to as God.

Response to anticipated objections:

What is the cause of God? You’re assuming that there is a cause of God. Since God is necessary existence, its nature is infinite. Which means that if you tried to trace the cause of something that is uncaused you will end up in an infinite regress since that is the nature of infinite being.

Why call it God and not just reality or the universe? Because what is meant by universe and reality is viewed as unintelligent and materialistic. The reason it is called God is because the properties of God describe necessary existence as infinite intelligence/mind.

What if you’re wrong and reality is contingent? Tell me atheist how you are able to even read these words, argue, and enjoy a painting of Picasso? You really think reality is an accident and random? Thats akin to a painter replicating nature through their art by putting a blindfold on and throwing paint against the wall. If reality is contingent, then what is preventing it from being necessary? Whatever that is, would be necessary!!

Edited Tuesday at 07:11 PM by r0ckyreed

[Leo Gura]

Yeah... that argument is never going to convince an atheist.

[samijiben]

I made a post earlier that I deleted bc I thought it was stupid but it is kinda related to this topic & I'll try to refrain it in a more subtle way.

It was about getting through to people. Especially dense people who are attached to their worldviews & identities.

You are never going to convince them of God or whatever you believe. 

What you can do is get them out of their mind & bring out their shine/humanity by being present & intense with them yourself, so much so that they SEE, "wow, this guy is CONSCIOUS, ALIVE, REAL, AUTHENTIC.

At that point, your interaction will either go in the direction of a genuine connection...

Or they will get angry & have ego backlash & Behold: you were never meant to interact with such folks in the first place. 

Instead of trying to change their mind or persuade or convince them in some way, simply seek to connect with them. This is how you will break down their barriers. Intimacy & closeness is a much surer path to God than proof, logic, debate & argumentation.

[Daniel Balan]

To me atheism means the rejection of religion, not being affiliated to any religion. To NOT believe that god is a bearded man in the sky or that after you die endless hordes of virgins will sexualy satisfy you! Thats what I mean by atheism, and hell yea I am a atheist by the definition I outlined above! 

Regarding God as you perceive it, I honestly don't know! To me personally God represents the miracle of existence! The marvellous intelligence of nature, earth, life, death, earth's seasons, awareness, perceptions, ingenious design of reality and all its laws like physics or mathematics etc. 

To my little mind this seems miraculous! I marvel at how plants and trees grow, at the intelligence of how nature manages to sustain life, how death is designed to always refresh the fauna of all the species of our planet, this seems really amazing for me! 

I came to the conclusion that all of this must be the result of a god like phenomenon! But no way in hell there is some anthropomorphic figure, somewhere hidden in another dimension, that puppets reality like how a marionette is puppeted in a theatre and that punishes those who don't believe in his existence! This is total bs! Thats why in my opinion all religion is a pathetic circus clown show! 

Edited Wednesday at 09:13 PM by Daniel Balan

[tuku747]

You made an argument as to why Reality is necessary but you should also explain why The Universe/causality is an infinite mind/intelligent.

Edited Wednesday at 09:33 PM by tuku747

[zurew]

You are not even remotely equipped to make arguments, im sorry dude.

First of all , the conclusion doesnt necessarily follow from the premises (the argument is invalid - you couldnt even establish a deducitvely valid argument) and aside from that , every atheist can accept the conclusion and maintain their atheism.

There are a bunch of other issues with the argument, because almost each premise can be easily challenged and you presumably have no supporting argument for any of those premises.

This is one issue with actualized.org , some of you guys are way fucking overconfident in what you can offer and how much of a deep thinker you are. This is supposed to be a layer 1 argument and its already fucked and the conclusion is something that isn't even something that you want to establish and we havent even talked about supporting arguments and supporting arguments for the supporting arguments.

[Sempiternity]

I was a hardcore Atheist for 30 years, ever since I was a little kid. I even wrote papers on the subject. Then one day I took 6 gms of mushrooms and had an Awakening. I immediately threw out all my work, and never looked back. Been on the Spiritual path ever since. 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Sempiternity said:

I was a hardcore Atheist for 30 years, ever since I was a little kid. I even wrote papers on the subject. Then one day I took 6 gms of mushrooms and had an Awakening. I immediately threw out all my work, and never looked back. Been on the Spiritual path ever since. 

Smarts!

[r0ckyreed]

20 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah... that argument is never going to convince an atheist.

I am actually convinced no argument will convince an atheist. I made a TikTok about deconstructing atheism and how atheism isn’t simply the mere lack of belief but is a rejection/dismissal of God. I made the case that if God was as clear as day to them by meditation or psychedelics, they would dismiss the experience/evidence and call it a hallucination in the same way that a flat earther will dismiss any evidence for the earth being round. I don’t think anything will convince an atheist and that isn’t my problem. You can’t force openmindedness on someone.

I got a whole bunch of comments saying that atheism isn’t a worldview or belief system but is a suspension of belief. But that doesn’t make sense because there are atheist communities formed and many of them share similar beliefs such as materialism, evidentialism, scientism, etc. They argue that atheism is like being a non-stamp collector. But yet, they make such an identity out of that, which entails atheism being more than just absence of belief. The very fact that atheists argue with me presupposes a belief.

Edited Thursday at 03:20 PM by r0ckyreed

[Breakingthewall]

You say that God is reality, not that God creates reality, so any atheist will agree with you. In fact, they'll tell you that you're an atheist too and that you shouldn't use the word "God" anymore, but "reality."

[Sempiternity]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You say that God is reality, not that God creates reality, so any atheist will agree with you. In fact, they'll tell you that you're an atheist too and that you shouldn't use the word "God" anymore, but "reality."

It's both. Just like in a dream, all of that dream reality is one thing: your mind/consciousness. Your body, the eyes you see out of, gravity, physics, the environment, and every person you meet and talk to, are all created by your mind. So you are the dream and the dreamer simultaneously. You are the creator and the creation. And what's another word for creator? 

 

[Breakingthewall]

34 minutes ago, Sempiternity said:

It's both. Just like in a dream, all of that dream reality is one thing: your mind/consciousness. Your body, the eyes you see out of, gravity, physics, the environment, and every person you meet and talk to, are all created by your mind. So you are the dream and the dreamer simultaneously. You are the creator and the creation. And what's another word for creator? 

 

It's impossible for reality to be like this because reality is unlimited, and the perspective you propose is limited; it has a creative center that emits images. The unlimited can't have a center, and the only possible creation is the inevitable reflection between  contrasting states to infinite power.

So, if you explain that vision to an atheist, they'll still be an atheist because it's untenable; it's a closed perspective.

Edited Thursday at 07:22 PM by Breakingthewall

[Sempiternity]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's impossible for reality to be like this because reality is unlimited, and the perspective you propose is limited; it has a creative center that emits images. The unlimited can't have a center, and the only possible creation is the inevitable reflection between opposites raised to infinite power.

So, if you explain that vision to an atheist, they'll still be an atheist because it's untenable; it's a closed perspective.

There is no center. God is unlimited imagination. God is also Nothing. From nothing, God imagines itself to be a reality, where it's a person, that sees reality through a first-person perspective, and everything in that reality is separate. Its imagination is so unlimited, it all seems so perfectly real.

Everything is God. Everything in reality is happening within Consciousness. Consciousness=God. All of reality is God's dream/mind. 

Can't explain it more simple than that. If one does not get it, they're not capable of getting it. 

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, Sempiternity said:

There is no center. God is unlimited imagination. God is also Nothing. From nothing, God imagines itself to be a reality, where it's a person, that sees reality through a first-person perspective, and everything in that reality is separate. Its imagination is so unlimited, it all seems so perfectly real.

Everything is God. Everything in reality is happening within Consciousness. Consciousness=God. All of reality is God's dream/mind. 

Can't explain it more simple than that. If one does not get it, they're not capable of getting it. 

That vision lacks logic, and reality is absolutely logical. What does "imagine" mean? Who imagines? How? Why? All of these are limits.

The wild card of: you need to awake to that realization, It will put you in the category of a person who needs security and certainty and for this, he creates a story and believes it, aka religious. 

[Breakingthewall]

It could be said without contradiction that absolute openness is synonymous with being. Being is not something; it is the very absence of limits, since not being would be a limit. Therefore, ultimate reality is being reflected in itself.  The point is: what is reflecting?

Let's say that I and everything that exists are essentially being, and being is synonymous with openness. What I perceive, what appears in this "being," is in turn being; it is also open and unlimited. Openness unfolds infinitely and looks at itself. "Looking at itself" in the sense of contrasting in state. Being has infinite states, but only one essence: openness. 

In the absence of limits, it is inevitable that two states of being oppose each other and create a stable, synchronous movement. This fact, raised to the infinite power, is manifest reality. Only that possible appears; everything that is possible appears. Possible = coherent, synchronous with the totality of infinite manifest being.

As you can see, this is an unlimited perspective, vs. the limited perspective of creator and creation. 

If you truly realize that you are the total openness, contraction disappears. This is felt physically, in your breathing; the mind becomes clear and open. To be a bit poetic, reality sings, rejoices, flows upon itself with joy, bursts into joy because it is

Edited Thursday at 08:06 PM by Breakingthewall

[Oppositionless]

That argument seems to be just an argument for reality, not God. No disrespect, arguing for God is hard. I think a stronger argument would explain why divine attributes such as infinite consciousness, love, intelligence, etc are necessarily part of God. With that you'd be arguing for God, not simply reality. 

Edited Thursday at 07:55 PM by Oppositionless