The fallacy of self help

[SOUL]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

In all of your post rage is perceived. That's the cosmic joke? It's not so funny 

I'm just a mirror brother for what you want to see, but ask yourself this one simple question, who created this thread from what intention and for what purpose? It didn't arise on its own.

Edited Wednesday at 04:05 AM by SOUL

[Javfly33]

15 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Then why a lot of things appear?

Answering that would be the realm of philosophy, not spirituality. Is like asking "why snowflakes are they way they are?" Who cares? I'm sure there is a mathematical explanation why we see mandalas And patters when we get high and not dog shits or cows. 

The problem is not that things appear, the problem is that there is a feeling there are You + Things. Therefore "things" become a problem to be solved, answered or "sorted out".

There is a self in your experience, remove that and that´s enlightment. 

Edited Wednesday at 08:25 AM by Javfly33

[Breakingthewall]

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

You think that you are at the mercy of suffering, but this just isn't true

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

2 years ago I had a surgery . They had to drill through my tibia, insert a plate with two screws on each side and a metal wire between them, and then open and stitch it up. I convinced the surgeon to do it without anesthesia. I told him that if I moved even a millimeter, he should tell the anesthesiologist to put the gas in my mouth. It lasted about 40 minutes, and I didn't suffer at all and I didn't move. In fact, I enjoyed the experience.

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Make the investigation grounded and real.

I've been researching this my whole life. Try reading what I've written before. 

Edited Wednesday at 11:13 AM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

There is a self in your experience, remove that and that´s enlightment. 

That's enlightenment according peter Ralston. I absolutely know that this is not enlightenment and you can understand without a doubt why really is as it is, you can see that directly. That perspective about no self is=enlightenment is limited, then it's false. 

The self is absolutely real, just like a stone. The thing is, the self and the stone are relatively different. From an unlimited perspective, they are the same: they are. The question is: What is being? I've explained this quite clearly in a few posts above.

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, SOUL said:

I'm just a mirror brother for what you want to see, but ask yourself this one simple question, who created this thread from what intention and for what purpose? It didn't arise on its own.

Then the cosmic joke is?

I created this post to expose the fallacy of the actual spirituality, as the title says. Seems that you got personally offended then you try to offend me but you didn't do a single contra argument. Maybe that's being enlightened? Seems a cosmic joke, I agree. 

[theleelajoker]

@Breakingthewall

So, I don't see this thread as poop, quite the opposite

Don't get why some others post have this flavor of attacking your content. We're just exchanging perspectives, aren't we?

I can relate to general ideas you are presenting:

• My experience matches with your idea that it's not thought that creates being closed, but (also) being closed leads to certain thoughts. Probably there is then a feedback loop. (Certain thoughts can make you more closed etc) Just focusing on thoughts is part of but not the solution in my experience 
• Yes, ego is real. Maybe it's a bug, maybe it's a feature, maybe both. My experience is also that integration> transcendence of Ego. 
• Related to that, emotions have a purpose, they make you move somewhere. So we get motivated to do stuff and interactions with external world is crucial. 
• As I understand your basic assumption is: reality is like it is because it's the most efficient structure and thus the only choice. Nobody in control. That's one possible option. You could also take a different approach: reality could be different, but it's the way it is because supposed to be this way. There is someone or something in control making it that way. 
• In both cases: the solution is to open up to everything as much as possible. Experience it, accept it as it is. Also accept your desires, your ego, your fears, shame etc etc. Because a) there's no other choice so why fight what can't be changed or b) sme or sth of higher intelligence creates this reality this way and who am I to think it should be different?

[Breakingthewall]

42 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

As I understand your basic assumption is: reality is like it is because it's the most efficient structure and thus the only choice. Nobody in control. That's one possible option. You could also take a different approach: reality could be different, but it's the way it is because supposed to be this way. There is someone or something in control making it that way. 

Yeah exactly and thanks for appreciating. If you consider the matter closely enough, you will see that it will inevitably be the first option, since if there were an entity that controls this reality, something perfectly possible in appearance, this entity would in turn be reality in a determined structural configuration caused by another set of cause-effect relationships, therefore, if you follow the line, you will only find the absence of limits.

It does not matter if the cause of my pain is that you hit me with a hammer, the ultimate cause is not you, it is the limitlessness. You could say that there is no cause or that the cause is the totality of infinite reality, both are the same statement, but the second is more open or promotes more openness in the structure of the psyche.

42 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

My experience matches with your idea that it's not thought that creates being closed, but (also) being closed leads to certain thoughts. Probably there is then a feedback loop. (Certain thoughts can make you more closed etc) Just focusing on thoughts is part of but not the solution in my experience 

If the thought creates the suffering, what creates the thought? You? Then, what creates you? The openess is when you realize that everything is interconnected.

The self is not separate from the rest of reality, nor is it its creator. It is simultaneously cause and effect; inside and outside overlap infinitely. Reality flows upon itself in infinite dimensions, you are the bubble and the whole, like everything else. Realizing this opens your structure completely. Denying the self as unreal closes it down.

42 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

In both cases: the solution is to open up to everything as much as possible. Experience it, accept it as it is. Also accept your desires, your ego, your fears, shame etc etc. Because a) there's no other choice so why fight what can't be changed or b) sme or sth of higher intelligence creates this reality this way and who am I to think it should be different?

Accept of course but over all understand them, what they are. Then you can see the flow of reality, it's a extreme shift. Your mind is closing everything putting limits, if the limits fall, everything reveals as the flow of reality, you realize the life, the unfathomable depth. This is the real point in spirituality, not erase the self. Erasing the self is a relative idea, it's obvious. Open the self is an unlimited idea, seems the same but it's totally different 

The real openess make a shift even in your body, in all your structure. You realize that you were contracted the whole time, even sleeping.

Edited Wednesday at 12:32 PM by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

A gem of a thread friend. Appreciate your time in unpacking the ineffable. Hits home here. My soundings are similar if not as stellar.

[UnbornTao]

6 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

2 years ago I had a surgery . They had to drill through my tibia, insert a plate with two screws on each side and a metal wire between them, and then open and stitch it up. I convinced the surgeon to do it without anesthesia. I told him that if I moved even a millimeter, he should tell the anesthesiologist to put the gas in my mouth. It lasted about 40 minutes, and I didn't suffer at all and I didn't move. In fact, I enjoyed the experience.

I've been researching this my whole life. Try reading what I've written before. 

On the one hand, you complain about the possibility that non-physical suffering might be largely self-generated - and on the other, you argue - through a personal example - that you didn't suffer during an actual surgery (though there's also the possibility that the pain was suppressed, which isn't the point here). 'Grounded' referred to your statement about suffering being the same as anything else - and the assumption that it is an 'arising that happens', that is, "something outside of my jurisdiction that somehow comes to me."

Edited Wednesday at 05:12 PM by UnbornTao

[SOUL]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Then the cosmic joke is?

I created this post to expose the fallacy of the actual spirituality, as the title says. Seems that you got personally offended then you try to offend me but you didn't do a single contra argument. Maybe that's being enlightened? Seems a cosmic joke, I agree. 

Again, it seems you are seeing your own reflection in the mirror.

I did give an alternative perspective, recognizing that there are many perspectives that fill the whole and calling others 'false' because it doesn't exactly reflect your own is just a mindset caught in dualism.

It's a pretty desperate way to justify one's own beliefs by pointing fingers at others and saying 'false', and this isn't me saying your perspective is 'false', it's me explaining how it's limiting and dualistic.

We can speak about how something or certain aspects can be a trap without calling other's perspective false. Even more insightful is recognizing the traps that can be in our own perspective as well.

Also, you fixating on the cosmic joke is becoming a joke of its own, it's not the cosmic joke of course but something that is just funny.

[SOUL]

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

So, I don't see this thread as poop, quite the opposite

I didn't call the thread poop, I said it's someone liking the smell of their own poop.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

On the one hand, you complain about the possibility that non-physical suffering might be largely self-generated -

What means self generated? What is the self? If you're producing thoughts that create suffering, you're doing so because the energetic structure that you are creates that vibration. It's not something you do; it's something that is. If you want to change that dynamic, this reality, the very fact of wanting to change is a structure that reality is creating, something that is emerging as a result of infinity. If you don't understand this, you're locked into the idea of the self as the primary, direct cause, and this is false. The self is interconnected with all of reality. Understanding this conceptually can be useful to avoid staying in the position of: I am the one who creates the suffering.

 

Yes, you create suffering, and at the same time, you are a consequence of total reality. The idea that you are sovereignly responsible for your energetic vibration, for your thoughts, is false. If you believe this, you will become frustrated, since you cannot control your vibration because you are your vibration. Control is the path of denial, which says that there are erroneous thoughts that you shouldn't have; you're having them because you want to. Stop having them. No, you're having them because that is your energetic structure created by reality. This structure can change, carry out a true metamorphosis, but it will never do so if it focuses on the effect believing that it is the cause. 

You have to see yourself as an energetic structure that is both cause and effect. You have been shaped by the interaction of Infinity with itself. There is no real difference between interior and exterior. They are two dimensions of the same reality, and both are unlimited and interconnected. If you truly see yourself, your intuition becomes more refined, and you understand which paths to take to unleash your potential and expand. If you believe there is a center, that you are that center, and that center decides what energetic vibration to emit, you are limited, closed, blocking the true openness that reality is.

Therefore, spreading the idea that you are creating suffering and can stop doing so if you decide to is a scam. Those who spread this are scammers, consciously or unconsciously. The reality is that you must change your energetic structure, or better, the energetic structure can change itself pushed by the vibration that we call suffering, and no one will ever be able to tell you how. Only you can understand the path, and it cannot be extrapolated to anyone else. It's a real movement of the totality, a real change that involves the whole. Just the reality flowing, expanding, like always. 

Edited Wednesday at 02:45 PM by Breakingthewall

[Jordan]

18 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

According to mainstream spirituality, this is creating suffering, not accepting reality as it is, resisting it. This is true; suffering is resistance, wanting things to be different, that's the human nature.

According to spirituality, the solution to this is to realize that the self is an illusion, so "wanting" is also an illusion, a misinterpretation that has trapped you and that you can let go at any moment. But the self is a completely real structure, and so is suffering. It doesn't matter if its source is not accepting or anything .

Then, you could erase the suffering erasing the self, that's erasing the will and the preference. Convincing yourself that reality is empty, nothing, then you prefer nothing. This is violence. It's possible, you can do it, you can even burn yourself to death without lifting a finger. This way, you're putting your enormous will not to suffer and your enormous fear of suffering above your nature. Instead of flowing perfectly in synchrony with life, you violate yourself and withdraw yourself. You die in life. It's pure fear and pure will disguised as the absence of fear and will. Absolute arrogance disguised of humility.

Yea I am not interested in erasing the self or removing suffering. I am not sure why people are obsessed with that. I just want to pay attention to how I interpret reality. It makes sense to do it in as truthful a way as reasonable and in a way that lets me enjoy myself as much as I can. Keeping your body healthy and looking for what is good about the present moment is what will remove suffering if that is what you want to do.

[Javfly33]

 

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

That's enlightenment according peter Ralston. I absolutely know that this is not enlightenment and you can understand without a doubt why really is as it is, you can see that directly. That perspective about no self is=enlightenment is limited, then it's false. 

Isn´t self the limitation? 

No-self is the unlimitation, self is the limitation.

If you don´t like the word "self" you could call it structure, the karmic glue or just bubble of personal experience. 

The problem and I think that´s why you don't like it like that is that there are a lot of people that are saying that there Is not a self or an "I" in their experience but they are limited.

This is not because enlightment isn't what it is, is because they are lying and deceiving themselves, they are enlightened conceptually, which is nothing more than an ideology.

Edited Wednesday at 03:09 PM by Javfly33

[theleelajoker]

30 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

What means self generated? What is the self? If you're producing thoughts that create suffering, you're doing so because the energetic structure that you are creates that vibration. It's not something you do; it's something that is. If you want to change that dynamic, this reality, the very fact of wanting to change is a structure that reality is creating, something that is emerging as a result of infinity. If you don't understand this, you're locked into the idea of the self as the primary, direct cause, and this is false. The self is interconnected with all of reality. Understanding this conceptually can be useful to avoid staying in the position of: I am the one who creates the suffering.

 

Yes, you create suffering, and at the same time, you are a consequence of total reality. The idea that you are sovereignly responsible for your energetic vibration, for your thoughts, is false. If you believe this, you will become frustrated, since you cannot control your vibration because you are your vibration. Control is the path of denial, which says that there are erroneous thoughts that you shouldn't have; you're having them because you want to. Stop having them. No, you're having them because that is your energetic structure created by reality. This structure can change, carry out a true metamorphosis, but it will never do so if it focuses on the effect believing that it is the cause. 

You have to see yourself as an energetic structure that is both cause and effect. You have been shaped by the interaction of Infinity with itself. There is no real difference between interior and exterior. They  two dimensions of the same reality, and both are unlimited and interconnected. If you truly see yourself, your intuition becomes more refined, and you understand which paths to take to unleash your potential and expand. If you believe there is a center, that you are that center, and that center decides what energetic vibration to emit, you are limited, closed, blocking the true openness that reality is.

Therefore, spreading the idea that you are creating suffering and can stop doing so if you decide to is a scam. Those who spread this are scammers, consciously or unconsciously. The reality is that you must change your energetic structure, or better, the energetic structure can change itself pushed by the vibration that we call suffering, and no one will ever be able to tell you how. Only you can understand the path, and it cannot be extrapolated to anyone else. It's a real movement of the totality, a real change that involves the whole. Just the reality flowing, expanding, like always. 

Resonates. 

"Can't control vibration because you are vibration" 

"Being both cause and effect"

"energetic structure can change itself pushed by the vibration that we call suffering, and no one will ever be able to tell you how"

Re last point: you see any other way than suffering? I assume the logic behind your statement is that only when the structure allows to feel "that is not good for me" it sets in a process to correct the current state?

[Breakingthewall]

49 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Again, it seems you are seeing your own reflection in the mirror.

I did give an alternative perspective, recognizing that there are many perspectives that fill the whole and calling others 'false' because it doesn't exactly reflect your own is just a mindset caught in dualism.

It's a pretty desperate way to justify one's own beliefs by pointing fingers at others and saying 'false', and this isn't me saying your perspective is 'false', it's me explaining how it's limiting and dualistic.

We can speak about how something or certain aspects can be a trap without calling other's perspective false. Even more insightful is recognizing the traps that can be in our own perspective as well.

Also, you fixating on the cosmic joke is becoming a joke of its own, it's not the cosmic joke of course but something that is just funny.

Then, if someone tells that to travel from a city to another you should walking in circles in your room, it's legit and we should respect it like a true perspective? Btw you didn't explain the cosmic joke. 

1 hour ago, SOUL said:

it's me explaining how it's limiting and dualistic.

How? You didn't explain nothing

[Breakingthewall]

42 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Re last point: you see any other way than suffering? I assume the logic behind your statement is that only when the structure allows to feel "that is not good for me" it sets in a process to correct the current state?

Suffering push to avoid it, is an engine for change and evolution. It is a very complex energetic pattern created by life as the most efficient path to expansion. If you are a being who lives in the physical realm, your suffering will be physical; if you are a being who also lives in the mental realm, in the dimension of the psyche, your suffering will be psychological. Both are the same: reality creates momentum in one direction, which is always expansion.

Psychological suffering is much more complex because it places us in a trap: we desire permanence and we are impermanent. Therefore, we must make a move for which there is no instruction manual: the breaking of boundaries, the opening to the unlimited. This flattens psychological suffering because you are no longer locked in the dimension of the logical mind. You are not creating a self-referential bubble in which your energy bounces off yourself. Instead, you operate in a fluid, open manner. This does not mean that if you have something like a serious illness you will not suffer, but it is managed differently

[SOUL]

49 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Then, if someone tells that to travel from a city to another you should walking in circles in your room, it's legit and we should respect it like a true perspective?

You just make up some random sentence and think it proves something? Useless words.

49 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

How? You didn't explain nothing

I didn't explain nothing? Yes, I didn't explain nothing, that is accurate.

Although, I actually did explain something when I wrote this I quote below from a previous post of mine but in your reply to me about this post you cut it out and didn't address it at all. It shows quite a bit about your mindset.

Quote

Also, when we call something false or true in a relative sense it reinforces the dualistic mindset. Them over there with those ideas are false, while me over here with mine are true.

True and false are relative dualism and if you are getting into the mind trickery of trying to think we can sort the illusion into two piles, one true and another false you have gotten lost in the sauce.

Absolute truth isn't an exercise is sorting illusion, it's transcending illusion. If you continue to focus on true and false and who has what ideas all you are doing is reinforcing your attachment to the illusion.

Quote

Sure, you can abide in your own mind pointing fingers at others, calling out your perception of false so continuing to invest in the illusory dualism...or not do that.

See, I didn't say you were wrong or it is false to do this, I just explained the influence of doing it. It is a trap to believe our own bullshit too deeply. It's all story telling we do to contextualize our journey.

The map is not the territory and the path is not the journey. The irony of awakening is that there is no journey and nowhere to go.

49 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Btw you didn't explain the cosmic joke.

Explaining the joke is like trying to describe enlightenment. Words are not suitable to convey it, only the realization of it in awareness does it become clear.

Edited Wednesday at 04:45 PM by SOUL

[Joshe]

On 6/21/2025 at 5:56 AM, Breakingthewall said:

There's a very seductive spiritual current that says: if you suffer, it's because you're causing it. Stop causing it, and you'll stop suffering. How do you cause it? With your thoughts. The self is only a thought; stop thinking, and you'll stop suffering. Focus on the NOW, and suffering, that error of the human mind, disappears.

This is absolutely false, simplistic, and very stupid. Conduct an experiment: torture a dog three times a day for years, terrorize it. We'll see if it's still in the NOW without suffering (do that experiment only in your mind btw).

By suffer, people don't usually mean physical pain. They mean the hellscapes that were constructed by repeated wrong thought and action. In that case, the person did cause it, and is causing it. If they want it to be no more, they have to identify how they're constructing it and stop. 

Focusing on the now is just pushing the mentations that perpetuate the hell out of the mind, but it's not very feasible to expect people to remain in the now, so I agree that this method is not ideal in most situations. Sure, it could work if one had extraordinary discipline, was very motivated, and/or didn't have to worry about survival, but this isn't the case for the vast majority. 

What's more effective for escaping hell is to make it your enemy, know your enemy, and strategize against it. Then, rather than sit still and push hell out of your mind, dig your way out. If you're focused on the task of escape, hell is not so bad. It's only bad when you're laying in a dark corner, sad, fearful, hopeless. 

This method also isn't feasible for everyone because not everyone seems able to be inspired in this way (maybe lack of vision or an unconscious addiction to the hell?), but I think it's more effective than the NOW approach. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:08 PM by Joshe

[James123]

21 minutes ago, Joshe said:

By suffer, people don't usually mean physical pain. They mean the hellscapes that were constructed by repeated wrong thought and action. In that case, the person did cause it, and is causing it. If they want it to be no more, they have to identify how they're constructing it and stop. 

Focusing on the now is just pushing the mentations that perpetuate the hell out of the mind, but it's not very feasible to expect people to remain in the now, so I agree that this method is not ideal in most situations. Sure, it could work if one had extraordinary discipline, was very motivated, and/or didn't have to worry about survival, but this isn't the case for the vast majority. 

What's more effective for escaping hell is to make it your enemy, know your enemy, and strategize against it. Then, rather than sit still and push hell out of your mind, dig your way out. If you're focused on the task of escape, hell is not so bad. It's only bad when you're laying in a dark corner, sad, fearful, hopeless. 

This method also isn't feasible for everyone because not everyone seems able to be inspired in this way (maybe lack of vision or an unconscious addiction to the hell?), but I think it's more effective than the NOW approach. 

Funny thing is, the one who say these sentences is enemy itself.