Afghanistan.

[Twentyfirst]

6 hours ago, Nemra said:

Of course they have some rights.

However, just because they have fewer rights than men doesn't mean that men can't face harsh punishment.

Are you seriously comparing the consequences men face for abusing women with the rights that women lack?

They have more rights than men. I told you already. Study Islam 

If women are allowed to be spoken to in a demeaning way then go and try for yourself and speak to a woman as if she is lesser than you. See what happens

[Nemra]

7 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

They have more rights than men. I told you already. Study Islam 

If women are allowed to be spoken to in a demeaning way then go and try for yourself and speak to a woman as if she is lesser than you. See what happens

You conveniently ignored what I just said.

[zazen]

Over 50 Muslim countries exist, most of which don’t resemble the Taliban in the slightest. In fact majority of muslims and muslim countries reject Taliban's practices which are either radical interpretations of Islam or not Islamic at all but cultural - but that then get conflated with Islam. Ijtihad is a principle in Islamic jurisprudence that allows Islam to be evolved and applied to different times. Even during the prophets life rulings changed in response to changing social situations. Islam isn't a monolith in how its manifested.

@Nemra @Twentyfirst

Regarding your guys discussion on modesty - we could flip it on its head and say: why do liberals fear modesty? (instead of Nemra asking why do muslims fear sexuality?). It's not really about fear to begin with really - liberals don't fear modesty, muslim's don't fear sexuality. The two just approach it from a different place. They have a different civilizational approaches toward sex, dignity, and self-respect. The use the same words, but live in different worlds in how they approach them.

- In the West, the individual is at the center. The sacredness of the individual demands freedom of itself, which is expressed through visibility - visibility is equated with freedom, which is why expression becomes a virtue. The more exposed, the more liberated - visibility validates the sacredness of the self. The self finds liberation in and of it self, by itself - me, me, me. Boundaries are seen as chains because the concept of dignity is in the self having none. The West seeks to affirm the self outwardly.

- In the East, the community is at the center. The sacredness of the whole demands harmony with it, which is expressed through restraint of the self - restraint is equated with harmony, which is why discipline becomes a virtue. The more restrained, the more harmonious - peace with the whole validates it's sacredness.  The self finds liberation through the whole, because it's in accordance with something larger and higher than the self. Boundaries are seen as mastery of one self, for a greater self found in the whole - the concept of dignity is in self restraint. The East seeks to refine the self inwardly.

We can see how those orientations have manifested in everything from politics to sex. In the West it's birthed a spectacle society - everything is more shallow because life is lived at the periphery acting, expressing the self, never sitting in the self being grounded. Its more performative, hence the activist culture, hustle culture, identity politics - about whats seen, visible. Identity isn't something to be cultivated internally but something to be displayed. Just look at how Trump and Elon had a spat made public. Imagine a grown ass man, tweeting some dirty laundry of another grown ass man - this is seen as undignified and juvenile from a eastern perspective.

In the East, issues are handled discreetly behind doors and face to face. Even at a macro political level state to state - the West demands you pick sides and cut ties with their ''adversaries'' publicly. They ask Muslim countries if they condemn China's actions towards Uyghurs - to which many Muslims nations reply, we are partners with China and handle this sensitive issue with our parnet in private. Even with Israel - Palestine: people were always asked to publicly condemn Hamas's actions on October 7th - which is an insult to even ask such a question, to even think that person would agree with such actions. But its all for show you see. Even diet and spirituality - one must be identified with a sub-group and express this always, hence the meme about vegans not waiting long before telling everyone they are one lol.

West: Individual → Freedom → Visibility → Expression → Spectacle

East: Community → Harmony → Discipline → Self-mastery → Sacred 

Easterners generally don't splinter into endless identity subgroups because at a deep civilizational level, they don’t experience the self as an isolated, floating island. They're anchored within a web of meaning towards something larger than the self: family, tradition, faith etc. That larger context gives the self structure, continuity, and belonging. They don't need to find it elsewhere in such and such group or identity, because they are already anchored into one.

 

Edited June 7 by zazen

[PurpleTree]

8 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

@Nemra Regarding your guys discussion on modesty - we could flip it on its head and say: why do liberals fear modesty? (instead of Nemra asking why do muslims fear sexuality?). 

 

 

You ask the worst questions. How did liberal countries become liberal? First at some point they were strict, religious and modest. Then they overcame it. Muslim countries never overcame it they’re still stuck.

[Breakingthewall]

On 6/6/2025 at 1:05 AM, Twentyfirst said:

Attraction isn't the highest value. If you live in a sexualized society that drapes women like pieces of meat then yeah all that will be on your mind is attraction attraction attraction. In a sexualized society Men become like a dog salivating with his tongue out. And women spend all their time insecure about their looks. And the least attractive men and least attractive women get cast away. Men judge women more on their appearance than their mind and women all chase the same top percent guy. Attraction fades away and is more blind infatuation than anything. The way it works in islam is attraction comes later, which it does

All of that you say is true, but it's a step toward maturity. Let's say it's the adolescence of society. Afterward, people will realize all that superficial stupidity (it's already happening) and maturity will arrive. Muslims, on the other hand, don't want to leave childhood, with daddy Muhammad telling them what to do and what not to do.

[Nemra]

12 minutes ago, zazen said:

East: Collectivism → Conformity → Centralized Authority → Norm rigidity

Fixed it.

[zazen]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

You ask the worst questions. How did liberal countries become liberal? First at some point they were strict, religious and modest. Then they overcame it. Muslim countries never overcame it they’re still stuck.

Nemra was assuming fear is the basis for every action taken - I just flipped it and rolled it into a question back to him to engage the mind (see his comment below). The Western mind often pathologizes Eastern discipline as fear - whilst that can be true, a lot of people are disciplined out of reverence, not fear.

They take mastery over the self as a higher form of freedom than indulgence. They liberate themselves through the whole, whilst the West finds liberation through the self. There's a way to conserve something through liberation, just as there's a way to liberate something through conservation. Silence (being conserved) liberates the sound of music, the same way music (being free) preserves the silence. Songs are made of sound (expression) and silence (restraint).

Just see Japanese culture, in particular the Samurai, do we think these people are being disciplined only from a place of fear?

You assume modesty is something to overcome - how do you know that? What does need to be overcome is extreme conservatism, in order to come to a place of balance - which is now lost in the West who have gone too liberal, and are now facing a populist backlash for. The reason I talk from the Eastern perspective is more so because I know this forum is mostly Western/Liberal and would benefit from it - I understand the value in the Western orientation and the downsides of the Eastern one too.

Dignity is performed in the West, whilst its protected in the East. The sacred aspects of life that hold meaning are seen as meaningful enough to be guarded in the East, whilst in the West they are seen as meaningful enough to be shared. The problem is both have extremes that end up ending meaning and dignity all together. In the East they protect something to the point they choke it off from the oxygen of life, in the West they expose it to the point all meaning is rusted by the elements or diluted entirely.

Meaning is fragile. So it requires both exposure and protection - too much of either, and it collapses. If we wanted to simplify it even more we could say the West finds dignity in saying Yes to things (expression), the East finds dignity in saying No to things (protection).

Obliviously there's also a spectrum. Why is it that we find complete nakedness (visibility - expression) not as beautiful or alluring as an elegant lady? Even just one step removed from nakedness,  take the example of a stripper. Its called strip and tease - because whats teased is the guys ability to have full access - to touch and to see. And this gets guys to whip out wads of cash. Strippers play the Western game of visibility, but use modesty as a tool within that game. Humans instinctively equate access with value - what is hidden is protected, and what is protected is presumed valuable.

This is why many find Arabesque belly dancers using veils or burlesque shows to be more alluring than simply being nude. That's why classically dressed women who are elegant exude femininity, by elevating the body instead of fully revealing it. Full concealment like in the niqab isn't alluring at all, because nothing is even shown to be valued - no soul or spirit is shown. It’s like looking at a rock, without a glimmer of gold. But the point with this is that it isn't Islamic - people conflate modesty (a value which protects that of value - women and sexuality) with erasure (an extreme). The same way liberalism can lead to hypersexualization.

On 05/06/2025 at 0:03 PM, Nemra said:

@Twentyfirst, there is a difference between believing in religious BS and doing it for aesthetic reasons to wear those clothes.

Muslims are not doing it for aesthetic reasons mostly. They are afraid of sexuality, and then they come up with religious nonsense to justify their fears.

I mean, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Edited June 7 by zazen

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Nemra said:

Fixed it.

Nothing fixed, but you did reveal the shadow side which is a helpful nuance. The Easts order turns to oppression (shadow), the Wests freedom turns to fragmentation.

West: Individual → Freedom → Visibility → Expression → Spectacle. The political ideal is liberal democracy.

West shadow: Atomized→ Impulsive→ Exhibitionism→ Shallow/Emptiness. The political extreme is anarchic libertarian. 

East: Community → Harmony → Discipline → Self-mastery → Sacred. The political ideal is a discern-ocracy (those of discernment lead) or wisely guided order.

East shadow: Collectivism → Conformity → Centralized Authority → Norm rigidity. The political extreme is authoritarian traditionalism.

Taliban is one extreme, Las Vegas is the other lol. 

Edited June 7 by zazen

[Basman]

Acting like a fundamentalist society isn't stifling to one's ability to self-actualize and self-express broadly speaking, which includes women's and gay rights, is just magical thinking.

But these countries are so elementary in terms of what they need structurally that I don't think it is really productive to harp on their lack of development. They are hell hole tribalistic countries. It is never going to compare to living in a first world democracy for hundreds of years.

11 minutes ago, zazen said:

Taliban is one extreme, Las Vegas is the other lol. 

Las Vegas is only extreme to fundamentalists. And even then thinking that Las Vegas is extreme is just a matter of opinion. The Taliban executing you for being gay is not a matter of opinion but a religious authoritarian system with serious consequences.

[Nemra]

@zazen, I think you are oversimplifying too much.

Community isn't and cannot be exclusive to the East, even if the West emphasizes the individual more.

Yes, there are people who think the individual can exist without community, but they're ignoring the fact that individuality itself cannot be maintained without community.

There are also people who think community can be sustained while ignoring individuality.

Show me an Eastern country that has achieved more genuine harmony between community and individuality than the West. And if so, did it accomplish this without Western influence?

Community isn't inherently better than individuality, and vice versa. What I think matters is the degree of truth, open-mindedness, honesty, and transparency present in a society.

Edited June 7 by Nemra

[kbone]

23 hours ago, zazen said:

Nothing fixed, but you did reveal the shadow side which is a helpful nuance. The Easts order turns to oppression (shadow), the Wests freedom turns to fragmentation.

West: Individual → Freedom → Visibility → Expression → Spectacle. The political ideal is liberal democracy.

West shadow: Atomized→ Impulsive→ Exhibitionism→ Shallow/Emptiness. The political extreme is anarchic libertarian. 

East: Community → Harmony → Discipline → Self-mastery → Sacred. The political ideal is a discern-ocracy (those of discernment lead) or wisely guided order.

East shadow: Collectivism → Conformity → Centralized Authority → Norm rigidity. The political extreme is authoritarian traditionalism.

Taliban is one extreme, Las Vegas is the other lol. 

Very astute. You seem like one who is writing from experiences within both 'East and West' cultural paradigms, and has spent time discerning the nuances. Is that the case?

Thank you for sharing,

[kbone]

22 hours ago, Nemra said:

@zazen, I think you are oversimplifying too much.

Community isn't and cannot be exclusive to the East, even if the West emphasizes the individual more.

Yes, there are people who think the individual can exist without community, but they're ignoring the fact that individuality itself cannot be maintained without community.

There are also people who think community can be sustained while ignoring individuality.

Show me an Eastern country that has achieved more genuine harmony between community and individuality than the West. And if so, did it accomplish this without Western influence?

Community isn't inherently better than individuality, and vice versa. What I think matters is the degree of truth, open-mindedness, honesty, and transparency present in a society.

When I read @zazen 's posts, I did not get the sense that he was writing about either/or (East v West) as a 2 sets of monolithic ideals completely divorced/distinct from one another. Culture studies are complex, as cultures are made of people who have shared values and priorities, shared norms and behaviors rooted in however distant pasts, etc. Surely you can see the stated comparison/contrasts even within the people of almost every culture. For example, some peeps value or emphasize their own freedom over their harmony with others, their own visibility/expression over their discipline/mastery, etc. 

I do not know @zazen, but I sense the contemplative type, not an argumentative one your reply seems to be looking for. Might I ask where you're from or where you live? It just helps to be clearerer on the more dominant cultural paradigm from which you are speaking.

Edited June 8 by kbone

[Breakingthewall]

On 7/6/2025 at 3:11 PM, zazen said:

Nothing fixed, but you did reveal the shadow side which is a helpful nuance. The Easts order turns to oppression (shadow), the Wests freedom turns to fragmentation.

West: Individual → Freedom → Visibility → Expression → Spectacle. The political ideal is liberal democracy.

West shadow: Atomized→ Impulsive→ Exhibitionism→ Shallow/Emptiness. The political extreme is anarchic libertarian. 

East: Community → Harmony → Discipline → Self-mastery → Sacred. The political ideal is a discern-ocracy (those of discernment lead) or wisely guided order.

East shadow: Collectivism → Conformity → Centralized Authority → Norm rigidity. The political extreme is authoritarian traditionalism.

Taliban is one extreme, Las Vegas is the other lol. 

East Asia is very different from the Muslim world. In China, Japan, Vietnam, and the Philippines, the community comes first, then the individual, but women are not oppressed or considered slaves of men to the same extent as Muslims. In all Muslim countries, women are oppressed to a greater or lesser extent. Afghanistan is a terrifying dystopia, but aside from that, there is a very toxic issue with women throughout the Muslim world.

[zazen]

7 hours ago, kbone said:

Very astute. You seem like one who is writing from experiences within both 'East and West' cultural paradigms, and has spent time discerning the nuances. Is that the case?

Thank you for sharing,

Thanks man, I have a mixed background European / Asian from UK. One side of my family are also Muslim, and am from London which is cosmopolitan so exposed to all walks of life. Also just have interest in making sense of it all.

One thing I've notice is migrant communities in the UK/Europe often are closer to their heritage than the host nation they're born in - they maintain a lot more cultural and psychological connection to it. Compared to the US where they are much more Americanized and assimilated - they see themselves as American first. Even asking Americans where their 'actually' from comes across offensive to them sometimes.

I think that's partly due to America's wave of immigration happening earlier so they're 3rd- 4th generation and assimilated by then, compared to Europe's wave after 1950's making them 1st-2nd gen today. For that reason when interacting with ethnic backgrounds in Europe you are exposed to a mindset a lot closer to their heritage nation, much more than in America. Beyond my own background which is between two worlds, I think that's helped.

7 hours ago, kbone said:

Culture studies are complex, as cultures are made of people who have shared values and priorities, shared norms and behaviors rooted in however distant pasts, etc. Surely you can see the stated comparison/contrasts even within the people of almost every culture. For example, some peeps value or emphasize their own freedom over their harmony with others, their own visibility/expression over their discipline/mastery, etc. 

On 6/7/2025 at 4:00 PM, Nemra said:

@zazen

Community isn't and cannot be exclusive to the East, even if the West emphasizes the individual more.

Community isn't inherently better than individuality, and vice versa. What I think matters is the degree of truth, open-mindedness, honesty, and transparency present in a society.

I agree with what Kbon mentions above ie complexity exists. I could include every nuance but I'd write too much and already feel I write too much but yeah, I simplified things and generalized to keep it brief.

Community definitely isn't exclusive to the East - as all values in general aren't exclusive to any one group or region. It's just that the general center of gravity can be more oriented towards one or the other.

There are other other factors that lead to shifts in orientation happening. Before the West was more centered around community, but then things started shifting due to the enlightenment, industrialization, capitalism, secularization, urbanization. Moving from agrarian rural society to big cities shifts the psyche, the introduction of the internet and social media are like gasoline on isolating us even more.

Like Kbone mentions even in countries you have individuals who lean more conservative or liberal too. There are even parralel societies now within major cities - for example many migrants in Europe have tight knight communities despite living in a wider society who have become more estranged from each other. That might be out of a survivalist pressure to band together - but even having something like a Friday prayer at the Mosque that many muslims go to - maintains a sense of community.

I saw Owen Cook actually mentioning this in a recent video where he said the Church almost used to function like a weekly get together to foster a sense of belonging and to ''increase your vibe''. There are certain elements from religion and tradition that had functional value, that is hard to find in the modern world.

Edited June 8 by zazen

[kbone]

12 hours ago, zazen said:

Thanks man, I have a mixed background European / Asian from UK. One side of my family are also Muslim, and am from London which is cosmopolitan so exposed to all walks of life. Also just have interest in making sense of it all.

One thing I've notice is migrant communities in the UK/Europe often are closer to their heritage than the host nation they're born in - they maintain a lot more cultural and psychological connection to it. Compared to the US where they are much more Americanized and assimilated - they see themselves as American first. Even asking Americans where their 'actually' from comes across offensive to them sometimes.

I think that's partly due to America's wave of immigration happening earlier so they're 3rd- 4th generation and assimilated by then, compared to Europe's wave after 1950's making them 1st-2nd gen today. For that reason when interacting with ethnic backgrounds in Europe you are exposed to a mindset a lot closer to their heritage nation, much more than in America. Beyond my own background which is between two worlds, I think that's helped.

I agree with what Kbon mentions above ie complexity exists. I could include every nuance but I'd write too much and already feel I write too much but yeah, I simplified things and generalized to keep it brief.

Community definitely isn't exclusive to the East - as all values in general aren't exclusive to any one group or region. It's just that the general center of gravity can be more oriented towards one or the other.

There are other other factors that lead to shifts in orientation happening. Before the West was more centered around community, but then things started shifting due to the enlightenment, industrialization, capitalism, secularization, urbanization. Moving from agrarian rural society to big cities shifts the psyche, the introduction of the internet and social media are like gasoline on isolating us even more.

Like Kbone mentions even in countries you have individuals who lean more conservative or liberal too. There are even parralel societies now within major cities - for example many migrants in Europe have tight knight communities despite living in a wider society who have become more estranged from each other. That might be out of a survivalist pressure to band together - but even having something like a Friday prayer at the Mosque that many muslims go to - maintains a sense of community.

I saw Owen Cook actually mentioning this in a recent video where he said the Church almost used to function like a weekly get together to foster a sense of belonging and to ''increase your vibe''. There are certain elements from religion and tradition that had functional value, that is hard to find in the modern world.

Yes, the experience with otherness, and the willingness to engage it and contemplate it, putting one's perspective in its shoes are key. I was picking up on the nuances you were referring to and reflecting on my own little models that I had either learned, taught, or spontaneously reformulated in dealing with such complexity in real time. The goal was not to pigeonhole a culture, or label as this or that, but to understand enough in order to relate to and/or navigate within the intercultural contexts within which I was engaging. It's safe to say that in consistently doing so, the emergent awareness of how the construct of self is heavily influenced by such cultural 'boundaries' became more and more apparent.

If interested in taking a look, I also used Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions research as a groundwork for creating a university-level intercultural communications course within a second language, teacher training program. From what you've shared, you probably already know of it. Anyway, the overall goal was to develop the teacher trainees' academic language skills while also developing their theoretical framework for second language teaching/acquisition. Within that matrix of courses, we sought to develop their understanding of how culture affects both the decoding and coding of language in interactive contexts as the "Fifth Skill" (other than reading, writing, listening, speaking). That is, with say English as an international language, how do different thinkers/feelers use the language to express or understand others. Anyway, after the curriculum explored the core parameters of culture , we then developed their understanding of a small mix of the cultural dimensions models. After a few months of all that, as a penultimate project for the course, I had the students conduct group interviews of foreigners living in South Korea. They had to write and ask questions that elicited the respondents' own unconscious dimensions (i.e., they couldn't use the wording of the dimensions themselves), and then to use their own knowledge of the dimensions to identify where the respondent was on the continuums in the various dimensions. They then had to help each other analyze the recorded interviews before individually writing a full fledged academic essay on their findings. Purddy coolio to see their eyes brighten as more interculturally aware (i.e., less ethnocentric/more ethnorelative --> a course objective)  speakers of a second language.

With respect to the Muslim world, which is extremely varied in its own right (Sunni/Shia/Wahhab/Aga Khan/Sufi), there are some great case studies. I never made it into Iran, but the people I've met from their are extraordinary, and they often speak about their beloved country before, during, and after the Islamic Revolution, often delicately expressing the nuances of the pros and cons. Personally, I haven't gone deeply into the sects in any scholarly way, but noticed and took note of them based on what I knew through my reading and interpretation of interactions while living amongst and traveling here. But the comparisons and contrasts between the Muslim communities in Pakistan/India and say Uzbekistan and/or Indonesia or Malaysia were quite eye-opening and, of course, always in flux. Indeed, even the regional variation within Pakistan was quite revealing.

Recently, what I find interesting is the similarity of the various forms of political extremism on the rise (and the potential hows/whys), whether it be far-right/left in liberal democracies, the Hindutva in India, the neo-conservative Islamic movements in various countries, etc in how it's almost like a market share phenomenon wherein the political parties are 'selling' their brand as righteous whilst denigrating otherness as evil. And then I wonder, has it ever been any different ...? 

[kbone]

On 6/7/2025 at 6:16 AM, zazen said:

Nemra was assuming fear is the basis for every action taken - I just flipped it and rolled it into a question back to him to engage the mind (see his comment below). The Western mind often pathologizes Eastern discipline as fear - whilst that can be true, a lot of people are disciplined out of reverence, not fear.

They take mastery over the self as a higher form of freedom than indulgence. They liberate themselves through the whole, whilst the West finds liberation through the self. There's a way to conserve something through liberation, just as there's a way to liberate something through conservation. Silence (being conserved) liberates the sound of music, the same way music (being free) preserves the silence. Songs are made of sound (expression) and silence (restraint).

Just see Japanese culture, in particular the Samurai, do we think these people are being disciplined only from a place of fear?

You assume modesty is something to overcome - how do you know that? What does need to be overcome is extreme conservatism, in order to come to a place of balance - which is now lost in the West who have gone too liberal, and are now facing a populist backlash for. The reason I talk from the Eastern perspective is more so because I know this forum is mostly Western/Liberal and would benefit from it - I understand the value in the Western orientation and the downsides of the Eastern one too.

Dignity is performed in the West, whilst its protected in the East. The sacred aspects of life that hold meaning are seen as meaningful enough to be guarded in the East, whilst in the West they are seen as meaningful enough to be shared. The problem is both have extremes that end up ending meaning and dignity all together. In the East they protect something to the point they choke it off from the oxygen of life, in the West they expose it to the point all meaning is rusted by the elements or diluted entirely.

Meaning is fragile. So it requires both exposure and protection - too much of either, and it collapses. If we wanted to simplify it even more we could say the West finds dignity in saying Yes to things (expression), the East finds dignity in saying No to things (protection).

Obliviously there's also a spectrum. Why is it that we find complete nakedness (visibility - expression) not as beautiful or alluring as an elegant lady? Even just one step removed from nakedness,  take the example of a stripper. Its called strip and tease - because whats teased is the guys ability to have full access - to touch and to see. And this gets guys to whip out wads of cash. Strippers play the Western game of visibility, but use modesty as a tool within that game. Humans instinctively equate access with value - what is hidden is protected, and what is protected is presumed valuable.

This is why many find Arabesque belly dancers using veils or burlesque shows to be more alluring than simply being nude. That's why classically dressed women who are elegant exude femininity, by elevating the body instead of fully revealing it. Full concealment like in the niqab isn't alluring at all, because nothing is even shown to be valued - no soul or spirit is shown. It’s like looking at a rock, without a glimmer of gold. But the point with this is that it isn't Islamic - people conflate modesty (a value which protects that of value - women and sexuality) with erasure (an extreme). The same way liberalism can lead to hypersexualization.

 

Japan was the first country I lived in full time after leaving the States back in the early 90s. Luckily, I chose Kyoto as my home for three years, living in various parts of the city. At first, the general modern life of Japan was full of the cultural fascination always experienced in the honeymoon stage. Most every night I rode my bike through Gion, where so much of the past mingled with the modern forms of life and drama. After some of the negative effects of culture shock eventually wore off, I began to peer a bit more behind the curtain and was deeply humbled by its depth and the types of silence that its philosophical and/or Zen roots pointed to and/or evoked. The young cacophonous mind was challenged, intrigued, and almost fearful of not knowing to 'what' it was all pointing to. For example, there's a MASSIVE qualitative distinction between the word, the mental understanding of, the intuitive glimpse of, the acausal Realization of the Void, the Nothing. It was only after a few satoris that the mind began to come to terms with it's own limitations and what it might have to let go of... perfectly so.

And even then, it wasn't until much later, whilst living in solitude in the mountains for months on end, that the mind was informed of what was meant by abiding in/as non-dual Awareness, always ... right HERE, right NOW. 

[Breakingthewall]

On 9/6/2025 at 1:15 PM, kbone said:

Japan was the first country I lived in full time after leaving the States back in the early 90s

Sounds like an interesting experience . The Japanese are fascinating, very difficult to understand. They seem like a very repressed culture, where everything is ritualistic. They're absolutely horrified at not meeting social standards, and where the main value is the repression of instincts in order to fit into the social framework. And then there's the whole hara-kiri thing... In no other culture has suicide been an institution. Not to mention their sexual fantasies. Very different than any other culture.

 

[kbone]

On 6/10/2025 at 8:06 AM, Breakingthewall said:

Sounds like an interesting experience . The Japanese are fascinating, very difficult to understand. They seem like a very repressed culture, where everything is ritualistic. They're absolutely horrified at not meeting social standards, and where the main value is the repression of instincts in order to fit into the social framework. And then there's the whole hara-kiri thing... In no other culture has suicide been an institution. Not to mention their sexual fantasies. Very different than any other culture.

 

There's a lot to be observed and taken in in any new culture: stereotypes, nuances, reasoning, contextual clues, and all the rest. To get through the culture shock and adapt/accept requires a conscious learning and a strong degree of self awareness. But yes, the Japanese are a very interesting bunch. I learned a lot during the expansive and implosive years surrounding and including my time there.

Curious, how did you decide on a junk boat as your avatar pic? I used to enjoy watching those in Hong Kong. Didn't see many last time I was there.

[Breakingthewall]

5 hours ago, kbone said:

There's a lot to be observed and taken in in any new culture:

For me it's difficult to understand my culture, Imagine the Japanese 😅

5 hours ago, kbone said:

Curious, how did you decide on a junk boat as your avatar pic? I used to enjoy watching those in Hong Kong. Didn't see many last time I was there.

I used to do long trips sailing, I'm fighting hard to do again as a business, and this is the cover of a book of jack Vance, a series b scifi writer that love, and also it represent to me the slow path without end