Should i Manipulate Others or Not?

[Atb210201]

Short answer: No

[theleelajoker]

20 hours ago, Eskilon said:

This is so true.

I don't like to lie and I wouldn't.

But we are in the dark ages of human development, you can't do good and be wise if you don't lie a little and omit some things. This things would not be necessary if people were more spiritual, honest, and more loving. But since they aren't, some immoral things are needed to play the current game.

 

I think that's a story you tell yourself to protect yourself in some way. I think it will bite you in the ass. 

On 17.5.2025 at 9:03 AM, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@UnbornTao

We are in agreement. 

I feel like manipulation - and indeed I use the term with no negative connotations - is one of the lessons we are to learn.

'Handle skillfully' is a beautiful and much more positive reframe.

Machiavellian behavior that is purely self-serving would be the negative form. Those who would manipulate for their own gain, at the detriment of the system at large and other people. I notice there is a value judgement of my own baked into this.

You are a great conversationalist to bounce ideas off - you come across as very objective. It makes hashing out concepts a pleasure!

If you steer people im any way without being asked to do so, it's selfish. You do it because you want people to behave in a certain way, you think you know what's right for them. 

If people ask you for direction it's not manipulation anymore it's a question and you answered 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

7 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

 

I think that's a story you tell yourself to protect yourself in some way. I think it will bite you in the ass. 

If you steer people im any way without being asked to do so, it's selfish. You do it because you want people to behave in a certain way, you think you know what's right for them. 

If people ask you for direction it's not manipulation anymore it's a question and you answered 

I should specify more detail - ultimately we cannot control others. I give information and advice, I never give my personal opinion unless directly asked. No matter what I actually say to the person, they will take away from it the parts they need to hear, regardless of my real message. I am attempting to give them the energy they need at the time really. 

I do not use any force in my manipulations. That is unless, for example, it is at work. Where I steer the person to what I need, and if given the chance they do not make the correct choice, I use force and command them. In work examples (construction) I am the boss/client of the subcontractor, and 2IC of the company. So I am in this position for the reason I can use force at my discretion to achieve an outcome. I rarely need to do this. 

I think because I view others actions as their responsibility, and their conduct outside my control, I do not feel my manipulations are ever negative. Just a personal view there. My intentions are always positive, which helps. 

I am slightly arrogant in that a lot of the time I know what the person needs, and what they need to do. But I am talented at reading others, so I know what will be received well given their mindset. I know how to package the manipulation to push them to grow. I just push those around me to grow. My only intent 

[Eskilon]

8 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

I think that's a story you tell yourself to protect yourself in some way. I think it will bite you in the ass. 

Not all manipulations are evil in intent. And also, good luck navigating life without manipulating your situations.

You have a limited form, you value life, you have values, you need to protect yourself.

Edited Tuesday at 08:06 PM by Eskilon

[theleelajoker]

40 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Not all manipulations are evil in intent. And also, good luck navigating life without manipulating your situations.

You have a limited form, you value life, you have values, you need to protect yourself.

@Eskilon I influence my situations, obviously. As much as I can, as much as I am aware of my actions, I do it openly, expressing my intentions and state. Or correct my actions as soon as I become aware. As posted before, different definitions influence/manipulation for me. 

Does it always work like that? No. Sometimes I am not conscious enough. Shit happens but I don't like when I noticed that I manipulated others, or tried to.

@Natasha Tori Maru yeah with work I get you, it's most of time a organized hierarchy and you often need some decision making power to be efficient. 

"I am attempting to give them the energy they need at the time" -> would have said the same earlier. Now I focus more on just expressing myself. 

 

The last paragraphs you wrote and your signature don't seem to align. Just my impression.

 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

3 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

@Natasha Tori Maru yeah with work I get you, it's most of time a organized hierarchy and you often need some decision making power to be efficient. 

"I am attempting to give them the energy they need at the time" -> would have said the same earlier. Now I focus more on just expressing myself. 

The last paragraphs you wrote and your signature don't seem to align. Just my impression.

 

"I am attempting to give them the energy they need at the time" - I will add also, I only give out when I feel/perceive/see I am being asked too.

Oh, you mean regarding control? My signature is approaching through the lens of empowering one to take action when they can - they make the choice to control their action and do the thing, instead of procrastinating and avoiding. This doesn't mean you can always control the outcome, more that your actions - which are within your control - give you a measure of influence than can empower. Not so much absolute control but more... the power to influence.

'I think because I view others actions as their responsibility, and their conduct outside my control, I do not feel my manipulations are ever negative.'

Quoting myself above, I phrased totally wrong - or did not preface it enough. My intentions are always positive with manipulation. I just feel ultimately I cannot control others actions, only steer. I consider withholding things others shouldn't know also a form of manipulation. IE a spiritual truth that might not be right for the person to hear yet. Some things are blatant - Steering someone away from suicide or harm to anyone. However I do admit in this process, it is my judgement based on personal beliefs that inspire the manipulation - and this can have ego, arrogance and all the traps of human failings. You cannot see what you cannot see etc

Edited yesterday at 12:55 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Brittany]

You might like the book "The Surrender Experiment" by Michael Singer.

It is kind of like an autobiography of how when he surrendered, many things just fell into place financially and relationship wise.

Book Description:

"As he takes you through his grand experiment, Singer demonstrates how surrender is the key to a peaceful and harmonious life. His remarkable and unexpected personal experiences will challenge your deepest assumptions, teaching you how to stop making the outside world conform to your desires, let go of the need to control everything, and place your trust in life’s perfection.  Thought-provoking and moving, The Surrender Experiment will inspire you to seek the calm and freedom that comes from letting go."

[Aaron p]

Nothing is inherently bad (even egoically). Like if it's your brothers birthday and there's a surprise party but he's about to go into the room and find all the balloons and presents so you fake an injury and ask him to help you to the car then yous leave...that's technically manipulation, but he would've been super pissed if you didn't manipulate him there.

Subjectively and in actuality, we use the term manipulate to infer negative motivations. So for simplicity sake, really...no it's not manipulation. So if we drop the philosophical fluff and just use the terms how we know we mean, generally it's not a good idea to manipulate other people lol. But some manipulation is required. Most marketing is manipulative. 

It can also get quite twisty even with honest people. Like technically employing a method of showing 100% genuine authenticity and transparency can also be a method to manipulate people into trusting you.

I sense this has become a bit of a word game and mental mastrubation. 

My solution is best, just use suggestion and drop manipulation.

[AION]

You already manipulate somebody just by being. People are too pig headed about manipulation. Everybody does it all the time without knowing and just by existing. If you go in a room and you have a certain frame, everybody will be influenced by it. 

[UnbornTao]

3 hours ago, AION said:

You already manipulate somebody just by being. People are too pig headed about manipulation. Everybody does it all the time without knowing and just by existing. If you go in a room and you have a certain frame, everybody will be influenced by it. 

That’s more consistent with the original definition of "to handle skillfully." Every thought you have is a manipulation. Emotions, for example, are self-manipulations--they are internally generated activities meant to produce an effect (in this case, motivating you to act in alignment with your own agenda). I wouldn't include being in that, but perhaps "selfing", existing as a person.

Edited yesterday at 01:36 PM by UnbornTao

[AION]

28 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

That’s more consistent with the original definition of "to handle skillfully." Every action you take is a manipulation. Emotions, for example, are self-manipulations--they are internally generated activities meant to produce an effect (in this case, motivating you to act in alignment with your own agenda). I wouldn't include being in that, but perhaps "selfing", existing as a person.

It doesn’t matter how one calls it. I would call it influence. 

I discovered this with self respect. I started respecting myself more and other people who I knew and didn’t knew started respecting me more too. 

My conclusion was that the non-physical plane has an influence on the physical plane.  Influence is not done by doing but by taking a position and holding. Especially women are very susceptible to frames. Men are kind of blind to it because our strength is in the physical. Real influence/manipulation is done in the non physical aka mind. And it is second nature to them. 

As an experiment, I once went to a store and I saw a woman there. I didn’t speak a word to her. And I convinced myself I was the shit and she was shit and she basically read my mind and she was insulted by it. I was like wtf. I didn’t even speak to her or acted in a certain way. The mind is very powerful. 

Edited yesterday at 11:48 AM by AION

[UnbornTao]

1 hour ago, AION said:

It doesn’t matter how one calls it. I would call it influence. 

I discovered this with self respect. I started respecting myself more and other people who I knew and didn’t knew started respecting me more too. 

My conclusion was that the non-physical plane has an influence on the physical plane.  Influence is not done by doing but by taking a position and holding. Especially women are very susceptible to frames. Men are kind of blind to it because our strength is in the physical. Real influence/manipulation is done in the non physical aka mind. And it is second nature to them. 

As an experiment, I once went to a store and I saw a woman there. I didn’t speak a word to her. And I convinced myself I was the shit and she was shit and she basically read my mind and she was insulted by it. I was like wtf. I didn’t even speak to her or acted in a certain way. The mind is very powerful. 

One could say that taking a position is a "doing", as in thinking a certain way and placing attention on this or that. But I get your point.