Leo, do you think that Democrats should support right-wing economic policies?

[Joshe]

We’re not conceding to the right. We’re saying to get rid of the baggage because the average citizen is too easily manipulated by it. Even with your framing, they’ll still be able to implement effective attacks. They/them ads will still continue to roll. 

My idea of a good strategy is to take away their most effective attacks. Give them no culture war attack lines, then what will they have left? Not much. You’d have a much higher chance of beating them this way. 

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Leo Gura

“In Nova Scotia, workplaces are required to provide free menstrual products, including tampons, in all toilet rooms, regardless of their gender designation. This includes men's washrooms. The Nova Scotia Legislature's Bill 154 outlines this requirement, emphasizing that employers must provide access to these products without charge in all workplace toilet facilities used by menstruating people. “ - Leo AI

Blast that through a mega-phone at Emerald

[Thought Art]

📣 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm pretty sure that if leftists had carte blanche they would put tampon dispensers in men's bathrooms.

Not that I personally care. It's just bad vibes and bad optics in terms of winning elections.

Just because you are a sane leftist Emerald, doesn't mean there aren't unhinged leftists out there.

It isn't my point that there aren't any insane leftists. There are crazies from all walks of life.

My point is that you keep adding more fuel to the right wing fire by conceding to their framing and spreading their anti-woke lies and propaganda for them... and you keep framing YOUR OWN SIDE as goofy and reinforcing lies that right wingers have used to smear middle of the road Democrats.

And all it does is divide the left and weaken your own cause... while you believe that you're strengthening it by trying to get the extremist stench off of you.

But in so doing, you are reaffirming to the world that there is a stench and that what you support isn't normal... but that right wing authoritarian control over people's personal choices and obsession with trans people is normal.

How many times have I heard, "If only Kamala didn't do identity politics and focus on trans issues, she would have won."

But she very deliberately didn't do that. It's just that anyone left of the far right is going to get hit with lies and propaganda that paint them out as unserious out of touch wokies.

And lefties will keep getting tarred and feathered that way until they actually own their pro-freedom and pro-acceptance position and full-throatedly normalize it in the way that the average person can understand. 

The only acceptable position is, "I accept people and mind my own business because I'm not a weird neurotic busy-body who's obsessed with trans people and what's in their pants."

If you try to cower away from the accusations of being "goofy woke lefties", the right wing is going to continue to win the propaganda war... and middle of the road Democrats will continue to be labeled as goofy woke lefties who only care about whether or not trans people get to compete in sports (when they haven't even said dick about it.)

And this issue is that you believe this is a winning strategy, believing that you're strengthening the leftist economic message by running away from these pro-freedom and pro-acceptance stances relative to people's personal choices.

But the reality is that the left is associated with social freedoms and acceptance of diversity.

And there is no chance of getting away from it... as we are the pro-freedom party. And we don't get hung up about weird psycho-sexual obsessions like the right wing does.

So, I hope that I'm making myself clear that you are buying into made-up anti-woke narratives that the right wing used to smear Kamala and Tim Walz... and that it's the proliferation of this kind of narrative that weakens our movement. 

Own it... we're pro-freedom and pro-acceptance... and we mind our own business. And anyone who isn't, is obsessive and weird about things that are none of their business.

[Thought Art]

Politics is so profoundly messy 😄. 
 

I think you sorta need a post modern lens to be able to grasp it. Post modernism, understanding of ego, noise to signal ratio of people’s views, understanding of corruption, social dynamics, difference in cognitive abilities. Population segments and their information source preferences and history, vibes, law, . Etc,

Politics is this big messy sea of moving pieces. I’m learning everyone is wrong… 

Where I come from the lefties painted the sidewalks gay and put tampons in the men’s bathroom.

”

Halifax Regional Municipality (HRM) in Nova Scotia has rainbow crosswalks to demonstrate support for the LGBTQ+ community. These crosswalks, painted with the colors of the rainbow flag, are located in various parts of downtown Halifax and Dartmouth. The Halifax Regional Municipality initiated a pilot project in 2016, with the program expanding over the years, including the addition of a new crosswalk in West Hants in 2024. “ - Leo AI

I am personally indifferent. But, the concerns for right wing people who would appose liberal rule may have a valid point. If you don’t like tampons in men’s bathrooms, or gay pride sidewalks… liberals may not be the best people to have in power. 
 

I don’t think Kamala was this kind of liberal… but I also think, if she was in power should would be sympathetic to these kinda things. 
 

I think the challenge is… liberals being too naively liberal and conservatives being to ignorantly conservative. We swim in a political sea of naive ignorance. And, for the US unfortunately the right is drowning in corrupt, selfish, incompetence. 
 

It’s a mess. We are a bunch of selfish, ignorant conservatives battling naive libtards. Both sides are stupid and dangerous. 

Edited May 8 by Thought Art

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

We’re not conceding to the right. We’re saying to get rid of the baggage because the average citizen is too easily manipulated by it. Even with your framing, they’ll still be able to implement effective attacks. They/them ads will still continue to roll. 

My idea of a good strategy is to take away their most effective attacks. Give them no culture war attack lines, then what will they have left? Not much. You’d have a much higher chance of beating them this way. 

There is no such thing as the culture war, as the culture war is just a right wing narrative used to invalidate people they don't like.

The reality is that there are people with differences who happen to exist... and neurotic people taking issue with the fact that people exist that they would prefer not to exist.

Edited May 8 by Emerald

[Thought Art]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

There is no such thing as the culture war, as the culture war is just a right wing narrative used to invalidate people they don't like.

The reality is that there are people with differences who happen to exist... and neurotic people taking issue with the fact that people exist that they would prefer not to exist.

Wow, it’s that exact thinking that creates the culture wars ironically. 

Edited May 8 by Thought Art

[Yimpa]

5 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I’m learning everyone is wrong… 

[Thought Art]

@Yimpa

[Apparition of Jack]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But we stereotype all people.

"White boy", cracker, Tech bro, hot girl, fatty, hippie, fuck boy, frat boy, bimbo, himbo, bum, cuck, Libtard, geek, nerd, nigga, grifter, etc.

You're not going to stop that.

Have you ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy? How is this any different to someone in the 70s saying “there’s no reason to stop saying the N word (hard “r”) because people just say it anyway.” 
 

Or someone in Germany in the 30s saying “there’s no reason to stop making Jewish jokes because we all just make them anyway.”

Now I’m not saying that trans people are in the same position as Jews in Nazi Germany, but my point is that language has power. Just because society (as it stands) repeats certain words doesn’t mean you have to, especially if they have negative connotations. 
 

For someone so in contact with the human mind you seem to have a hard time grasping basic social wisdom man  

[Thought Art]

1 minute ago, Apparition of Jack said:

 For someone so in contact with the human mind you seem to have a hard time grasping basic social wisdom man  

Are all these contextually equal? All your points you’ve made? 

[Emerald]

16 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Wow, it’s that exact thinking that creates the culture wars ironically. 

It's just the reality of it. The culture war is and has always been about an ideological opposition to the existence of certain people.

So, there's just gay and trans people just existing. And then a bunch of obsessive busy-bodies get pressed and neurotic about that fact and want to stop them from existing (or at the very least to stop existing in their vicinity).

It's the same thing as it used to be with black people in the 60s and before.

Black people were just existing. And then a bunch of obsessive busy-bodies got pressed and neurotic about that fact and wanted black people to stop existing (or at the very least to stop existing in their vicinity).

But when black people wanted equality... instead of calling it a "culture war", we aptly named it "The Civil Rights Movement."

And it's a good thing too, or black civil rights would have been framed as a 'frivolous goofy culture war that leftists have to leave behind if their economic movement is going to succeed.'

It's the same situation now. The only difference is that the groups targeted are different. (thought we can always lose the ground we've gained if we keep ceding to the right on social issues)

And being neurotic about the existence of people who are different from you should not be mainstreamed or viewed as normal in the eyes of the Overton Window.

Here's ye olde "culture war"...

 

Edited May 8 by Emerald

[Apparition of Jack]

2 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Are all these contextually equal? All your points you’ve made? 

I’m not sure I follow.

[Thought Art]

@Emerald I’ll have to contemplate that. 
 

What is the difference between civil rights movements and culture wars? And, is the culture war simply existing because “neurotic people” dislike other groups. Are parents who don’t want their kids taught genders don’t exist neurotic? Or are trans people / pro trans / gender fluid ideologies neurotic because they can’t tell the difference between a boy and a girl? Interesting to think about. 
 

Can civil rights movements exist WITHIN a culture war? Or are they mutually exclusive? 
 

Are racist people neurotic? Are homophobic people neurotic? Are people who dislike and find trans people disgusting neurotic? Are people who are against giving children sex change surgery neurotic? 
 

Are people who don’t want nazis, racists, Zionists, environmentalists, Christian’s, atheists, homophobic, pro lifers, to exist neurotic?

Are people I simply disagree with or consider less than me neurotic? 
 

Are trans people who are born a man but think they are a woman neurotic? 

Are people who don’t like pine apple on pizza Neurotic?

Are people with this or that bias or opinion neurotic? Like, Christian’s who want Christianity taught in schools, are they neurotic?

What about people who want non-binary ideas taught to kids? Are they neurotic? 

Does the culture war boil down to just gay and trans issues? Or, that’s something for me to think about. Doesn’t it also include religion, political ideas? Racial issue? Ideas about boarders, drugs, etc?

Edited May 8 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

@Apparition of Jack I think his point was, like it or not… these stereotypes exist within the minds of our culture. Perhaps not YOU specifically. But, within segments of the population and this affects how people view political issues and the world. Like it or not people still use the “N” word with a hard “R”. People still make jokes about Jews. People still stereotype. Not everyone, and not all in the same way. But, different segments of the population view other segments of the population with stereotypes. 

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Emerald What is the difference between civil rights movements and culture wars?

It's always the same pattern of women, ethnic/racial/religious minorities, people who don't conform to gender norms, and culture heretics in general existing or asking for basic rights... and then people obsessively hating on them for existing and wanting basic rights.

But the 20-25% of people who feel that way need a way to get normies on board with their hate.

And they use narratives like "God, this is a culture war that divides us all." or "Did you know that teachers are putting litter boxes in middle school classrooms for kids who identify as furries?" or "Did you know that Tim Walz' put tampons in the boys bathroom because of the goofy trans stuff?"

But it's the same stuff that's always been. It's just that trans people are last hired, first fired. So, trans folks are usually the first targeted in these anti-freedom authoritarian hate movements. 

But if trans hate is normalized... it will go back to the attempt to normalize gay hate in the eyes of normies and mainstream society and to get rid of their rights.

And if gay hate is normalized... it will go back to the attempt to normalize immigrant hate in the eyes of normies and mainstream society and to get rid of their rights.

And if immigrant hate is normalized... it will go back to the attempt to normalize racial hate in the eyes of normies and mainstream society and to get rid of their rights.

And if racial hate is normalized... it will go back to the attempt to normalize woman hate in the eyes of normies and mainstream society and to get rid of their rights.

And if all that is normalized... anyone with a heretical viewpoint will be targeted and silenced.

Don't' fall for it... and don't normalize it, as it's only a matter of time before you're on the same chopping block for possessing a heretical viewpoint.

[Apparition of Jack]

3 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Apparition of Jack I think his point was, like it or not… these stereotypes exist within the minds of our culture. Perhaps not YOU specifically. But, within segments of the population and this affects how people view political issues and the world. Like it or not people still use the “N” word with a hard “R”. People still make jokes about Jews. People still stereotype. Not everyone, and not all in the same way. But, different segments of the population view other segments of the population with stereotypes. 

I mean, crime still exists, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to go out and rob a car.

Everyone has their biases. That’s natural. I even said I’ve struggled with mine. But biases can be overcome, and changing how you talk about people is one of the best ways to do that. Like, why keep using the words “tranny” or “n*****” if you’re not interested in reinforcing those ideas yourself?

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Apparition of Jack I think his point was, like it or not… these stereotypes exist within the minds of our culture. 

And the only way to solve this is by seizing the power of normalization and saying "Yes, we're the normal moderate people who mind our own business and focus on real economic issues, instead of obsessively hating on trans people.

You cannot avoid being stereotyped as someone who accepts trans people on the left. You will not outrun that stereotype, nor should you try to.

You'll have to come to a point of acceptance that trans acceptance and the embrace of social freedoms is just part of the left wing movement.

You can either run away from the accusation that you're pro-trans and cede to the right wing framing that accepting trans people is weird.

Or you can own it and make it clear that the weird thing is being a busy-body and obsessing about trans people.

[aurum]

19 hours ago, Hardkill said:

Liberals and centrists used to dominate the media environment before the rise of the right-wing media ecosystem beginning in the 1990s.

You are talking about elite, instituitonal, non-partisan media. They may have skewed liberal but barely.

And even that didn't last very long. Rush Limbaugh was already coming up in the 80s.

[Joshe]

If it were the 50s and we were figuring out how to win so blacks could just exist, and if Dem politicians were trying to further that cause by calling for reparations, I’d say they need to avoid any mention of that because the attack ads would kill any chance they had. That’s not conceding to the right. It’s operating within the bounds of what the electorate finds acceptable.

The electorate doesn’t like men in women’s sports. Yes, it’s not a real issue, but the electorate will be manipulated into thinking it is. And you have to deal with that reality. 

I just saw a lefty chick running for congress on the Piers Morgan show. Piers asked her if she thought it was okay for trans women to play in female sports. She answered yes, then Piers called her position absurd because he knows he has the backing of the majority.

The electorate is nowhere near being open-minded enough to see her as anything more than a confused or sick fool. This is just the current reality. 

It seems like a huge gamble to continue on with anything that resembles support for woke. It could end up working in the long run, but short term, it’s gonna lose.