Logic Is Part And Parcel To Enlightenment

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

@DodosterI agree with your last sentence

But life (and enlightenment) is a property, or rather a fabrication, of the mind. It is an illusion created by relativistic observation. Ultimately, there is no life or death. Only the Tao.

Well there we go, so what's this talk bout mind then!  The fabticated enlightenment is not the one to go for. The only way is to discover yourself as the Tao, otherwise it would have to be an outward movement through mind.

[Visionary]

Does cause and effect not imply a time assumption and a sort of linear way of viewing events? 

[Russell Parr]

@Dodoster What I am pointing out is that Enlightenment is insight into the ultimate nature of reality, or the Tao. Insight is a mental thing, and so when we talk about enlightenment, we are necessarily talking about the mind.

Put another way, enlightenment cannot exist without it's opposite. It is the product of dualistic demarcation. It is only by such that it can be spoken of. Therefore, enlightenment is not the Tao.

[Russell Parr]

4 minutes ago, Visionary said:

Does cause and effect not imply a time assumption and a sort of linear way of viewing events? 

Yes, necessarily so.

[SOUL]

Revelation is insight that doesn't use logic to acquire it, logic may be used after to examine it but the initial revelation happens when awareness transcends the mind and all it's trappings.

Of course, that insight is revealed within the context of mind even though it isn't the product of it yet the mind will attempt to lay claim to it.

Enlightenment is a function of awareness, not logic and to achieve the the illuminated insights it behooves us to shed the confines of the mind which logic is part of.

 

[Dodo]

40 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

@Dodoster What I am pointing out is that Enlightenment is insight into the ultimate nature of reality, or the Tao. Insight is a mental thing, and so when we talk about enlightenment, we are necessarily talking about the mind.

Put another way, enlightenment cannot exist without it's opposite. It is the product of dualistic demarcation. It is only by such that it can be spoken of. Therefore, enlightenment is not the Tao.

Cool cool but if mind is an illusion, it's illogical to be giving it that much importance to an illusion! 

Illusion needs to be defended to persist, stop defending it and it will drop -its logical

Edited May 3, 2017 by Dodoster

[Russell Parr]

27 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Revelation is insight that doesn't use logic to acquire it, logic may be used after to examine it but the initial revelation happens when awareness transcends the mind and all it's trappings.

Of course, that insight is revealed within the context of mind even though it isn't the product of it yet the mind will attempt to lay claim to it.

Enlightenment is a function of awareness, not logic and to achieve the the illuminated insights it behooves us to shed the confines of the mind which logic is part of.

The mind is not to be transcended, only the ego. You cannot have revelation or awareness without the mind.

[Russell Parr]

17 minutes ago, Dodoster said:

Cool cool but if mind is an illusion, it's illogical to be giving it that much importance to an illusion! 

Illusion needs to be defended to persist, stop defending it and it will drop -its logical

I know what you are saying, but what I am trying to do here is shine the light on the role of logic. It is far too often misunderstood amongst seekers, who mistake absent-mindedness for enlightenment.

[SOUL]

21 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

The mind is not to be transcended, only the ego. You cannot have revelation or awareness without the mind.

You have clearly displayed your own limiting beliefs with this statement but it doesn't apply to anyone except yourself.

Does an amoeba have any awareness? Of course it does, it is a primitive sense of awareness of it's surroundings but it is an awareness nonetheless.

Does it have a mind? No, it doesn't.

This is just one example of awareness without mind.

Edited May 3, 2017 by SOUL

[Russell Parr]

To reiterate, enlightenment is the mental transcendence of egotism. Meditation, or focused thought, towards an accurate understanding of the Tao, that is, ultimate reality, is what drives the mind towards enlightenment. 

The enlightened mind is fully functional; in control and aware of its logical processes. It is unhampered by the persuasions of the ego, which tends to and places importance on the subjective experience.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Russell Parr

[Russell Parr]

2 hours ago, SOUL said:

You have clearly displayed your own limiting beliefs with this statement but it doesn't apply to anyone except yourself.

Does an amoeba have any awareness? Of course it does, it is a primitive sense of awareness of it's surroundings but it is an awareness nonetheless.

Does it have a mind? No, it doesn't.

This is just one example of awareness without mind.

It could be said that an amoeba has a primitive, simplistic mind, from which its awareness emerges. But now we're playing semantic games. The point which this deviates from is in regards to the role of logic in enlightenment, which is to say, the enlightened mind is a logical mind.

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Russell Parr said:

Logic is the linguistic representation of cause and effect, which is an absolute principle of reality. The enlightened mind is fully logical and unencumbered by egotism, which causes the logical processes of the mind to stutter due to a clinging to ideas, concepts, people, and things.

Be careful not to decry logic. It is an essential ingredient to enlightenment.

Cause and effect is just a story of your monkey mind. There's nothing absolute about it.

Absolute reality has no cause and effect.

Logic is language. All language is a construction. The Absolute is utterly illogical because it contradicts itself, as it must to be infinite.

[SOUL]

1 minute ago, Russell Parr said:

It could be said that an amoeba has a primitive, simplistic mind, from which its awareness emerges. But now we're playing semantic games. The point which this deviates from is in regards to the role of logic in enlightenment, which is to say, the enlightened mind is a logical mind.

Well, it isn't semantics that an amoeba has a primitive awareness as demonstrated by it's ability to be aware of it's environment and respond to the stimuli in it.

Although, it is semantics to stretch the word "mind" in a way that describes the primitive awareness and response of an amoeba so it fits.

You are using your own definition of the word to justify your own view about enlightenment and you are welcome to do so for your own experience.

To suggest it is a universal truth for everyone is the moment your view and it's definitions cannot stretch to fit.

 

 

 

[SOUL]

2 hours ago, Russell Parr said:

enlightenment is the mental transcendence of egotism

Mental transcendence of egotism is one of the effects from enlightenment but isn't the only one and enlightenment isn't an effect from logical machinations in the mind.

[Russell Parr]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Cause and effect is just a story of your monkey mind. There's nothing absolute about it.

Absolute reality has no cause and effect.

Logic is language. All language is a construction. The Absolute is illogical.

Hello Leo!

Cause and effect is indeed a story, but it is a perfect one that describes the relationship between all things. It is absolute in the sense that it is absolutely true.

Absolute reality is entirely permeated with causality, through and through. Nothing can exist without it.

The Absolute is logical, or at least the understanding of it is, or else we wouldn't be able to understand or refer to it. 

[Russell Parr]

3 minutes ago, SOUL said:

enlightenment isn't an effect from logical machinations in the mind.

Yes it is. Enlightenment doesn't just pop up out of nowhere. It is an awareness resulting from an accurate understanding of reality, coupled by the shedding of delusion.

[SOUL]

15 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

Yes it is. Enlightenment doesn't just pop up out of nowhere. It is an awareness resulting from an accurate understanding of reality, coupled by the shedding of delusion.

An accurate understanding of reality and the shedding of delusion are effects from enlightenment that can happen in us, although it is more than just those effects and not a result of them.

One can attempt to logically construct a mental framework, a paradigm, to understand enlightenment and it's effects but that isn't what is enlightenment itself.

Conflating the two as one is what the mind does to justify it's ideas about it and often is the stumbling block to enlightenment.

Enlightenment can happen when the mind gets out of the way of our awareness, the mind cannot understand a process that doesn't include it even if the effects are experienced in the mind.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by SOUL

[Leo Gura]

@Russell Parr You speak of things you have not deeply experienced.

[Russell Parr]

@Leo Gura Assumptive dismissals won't work on me, Leo  

Edited May 4, 2017 by Russell Parr

[Russell Parr]

@SOUL Perhaps you are assuming that by mind I mean brain? Whatever the case, brain, mind, consciousness, ego, enlightenment, are all equally illusory. 

It remains true that enlightenment is the result and is indicative of a logical consciousness.