Leo's Blog Discussion Mega-Thread

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Leo Gura

What's the problem with survival?

It's the most essential force of nature, driving all of the living creatures. Of course it's better to be conscious of it, but one can't just stop it willy nilly, that would contradict nature, and therefore God. God wants to survive through all the living creatures.

I think that the point is not to let survival distract us from the truth. In an attempt to survive, we may do untruthful and corrupt things.
However, I don’t think that survival is bad either. Our body is a vehicle and our emotions are messages. We can use them wisely to access truth (through intuition). This is something that many philosophers who are detached from their bodies are missing. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

14 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

I think that the point is not to let survival distract us from the truth. In an attempt to survive, we may do untruthful and corrupt things.
However, I don’t think that survival is bad either. Our body is a vehicle and our emotions are messages. We can use them wisely to access truth (through intuition). This is something that many philosophers who are detached from their bodies are missing. 

I'm trying to say that Leo is missing the big picture by pointing at instances of survival as corrupt or wrong or as contradicting Truth. God is a child that learns by mistakes, sometimes that mistake is war ,sometimes it's a Holocaust. It's not that simple.

Edited 17 hours ago by Anton Rogachevski

[Lila9]

8 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

This makes me quite skeptical of all the "existential" or "truth" matters.

What's more true than the need of a living creature to survive? 

Trying to look for absolute truths in such a vast and a divided reality looks silly to me. It's so natural for a unified consciousness to look for unity in reality.

The absolute truth may be that we are one, not separate (the illusion of separation), that we are consciousness/awareness manifesting/imagining physicality rather than the opposite, and that God is creating infinitely. This may be the main thing, and it is actually very simple and easy to understand, we all know it.

The issue is that humans, especially philosophers, don’t try to integrate this into their lives and are lost in endless theoretical intellectualization.

This is why philosophy and constant intellectualization is not the end game. The end game is to transcend it and literally to embody the “Truth”. Live it.

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Lila9

Both "separation" and "unity" are concepts.

The problem with calling any part of God "corrupt" is creating a separation of nature which there is none. Parts of God are corrupt and evil, the unconscious parts of it.

Edited 17 hours ago by Anton Rogachevski

[Lila9]

20 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

I'm trying to say that Leo is missing the big picture by pointing at instances of survival as corrupt or wrong or as contradicting Truth. God is a child that learns by mistakes, sometimes that mistake is war ,sometimes it's a Holocaust. It's not that simple.

Yes, I agree that it’s God’s creation and that it is divine and intelligent, doing its experiences and play, and it is as it is. But I think that survival itself requires us to forget that we are not really separated and that we are all God. Survival requires us to forget about the absolute truth in order to sustain the illusion of separation. This is not to deny that there are relative truths within survival and less and more awakened parts of God.

 

[Lila9]

13 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Lila9

Both "separation" and "unity" are concepts.

It may be “just” concepts.

But as I see it, the illusion of separation is a real experience that we feel, even if we are not really separated.
We strongly feel this illusion as the reality, unless we are high or in some ecstasy, joy, or in a love state.

 

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Lila9

If something is "real" experientially, does that make it Real? Experience is pure hallucination.

[Lila9]

Just now, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Lila9

If something is "real" experientially, does that make it Real? Experience is pure hallucination.

I don’t know. May be just a hallucination, which is what the illusion of separation might be. But it feels real enough to believe in it and perceive it as real.

[Anton Rogachevski]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

I don’t know. May be just a hallucination, which is what the illusion of separation might be. But it feels real enough to believe in it and perceive it as real.

I'm resolving this conundrum by not being an Idealist, but by an epistemic duality and call the truths of perception Phenomenologically True. If you are hallucinating a unicorn right now, it's True that you have that experience, it's self evident and empirical data about the nature of experience. Nothing about it is "absolute" besides the fact of your absolute immersion in it. I explain it quite thoroughly in my theory of epistemology, you can check it out in my signature if you'd like.

Edited 16 hours ago by Anton Rogachevski

[Lila9]

12 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

I'm resolving this conundrum by not being an Idealist, but by an epistemic duality and call the truths of perception Phenomenologically True. If you are hallucinating a unicorn right now, it's True that you have that experience, it's self evident and empirical data about the nature of experience. Nothing about it is "absolute" besides the the fact of your absolute immersion in it. I explain it quite thoroughly in my theory of epistemology, you can check it out in my signature if you'd like.

I see. I will check your work.

I just want to clarify: I didn't say that just because the illusion of separation feels real, it means that this is the absolute truth.

As I see it, the illusion of separation feels real enough for most living organisms to perceive it as the sole reality and forget about the unity (the absolute truth or part of it). Which is why survival and the absolute truth can be contradictory (though I am not sure to what extent).

[Anton Rogachevski]

1 minute ago, Lila9 said:

I see. I will check your work.

I just want to clarify: I didn't say that just because the illusion of separation feels real, it means that this is the absolute truth.

As I see it, the illusion of separation feels real enough for most living organisms to perceive it as the sole reality and forget about the unity (the absolute truth or part of it). Which is why survival and the absolute truth can be contradictory (though I am not sure to what extent).

Can contradictions exist in reality? Can reality contradict itself?

[Lila9]

45 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Can contradictions exist in reality? Can reality contradict itself?

It feels real enough for us to define it.

Dark and light are experienced as real enough to be defined as dark and light, and they have real consequences in our lives.

For us, as beings immersed in the separation of illusion, it is real enough. We also need it to survive. We need to define things like safety versus danger in order to survive.

Are contradictions absolutely real? I suppose not.

[gettoefl]

3 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

This makes me quite skeptical of all the "existential" or "truth" matters.

What's more true than the need of a living creature to survive? 

Trying to look for absolute truths in such a vast and a divided reality looks silly to me. It's so natural for a unified consciousness to look for unity in reality.

My two cents. There is one thing that's True, identity. The universe and the person looking back at me from the mirror is nothing to do with identity. However that person gives me a few breaths of opportunity to realize my identity. How? Forgive the false identity. How? Forgive the universe I assigned myself judge of. Forgive myself for being judge. And them my identity might appear. If not pray to be granted tomorrow that I get a few more breaths.

[Anton Rogachevski]

5 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

My two cents. There is one thing that's True, identity. The universe and the person looking back at me from the mirror is nothing to do with identity. However that person gives me a few breaths of opportunity to realize my identity. How? Forgive the false identity. How? Forgive the universe I assigned myself judge of. Forgive myself for being judge. And them my identity might appear. If not pray to be granted tomorrow that I get a few more breaths.

What is Truth for you? What are your metaphysics?

You are being quite cryptic here. Why is identity contingent upon a forgiving? Who is forgiving whom?

[gettoefl]

13 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

What is Truth for you? What are your metaphysics?

You are being quite cryptic here. Why is identity contingent upon a forgiving? Who is forgiving whom?

I told you what Truth is. It's all that exists. Problem is mind blocks it as best it can. Forgive that mind. That means stop blocking Truth. I explained how.

[Clarence]

21 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It is a rich notion that encompasses a lot of stuff. It includes Truth itself, but also one's relationship towards it. To be truthful, to care about truth, to live truthfully, to use the mind in truthful ways.

Thanks, I think I was missing that. I understood Truth as ultimate reality and truth as what is true, but I didn’t know that it could also encompass the idea of being truthful, caring about truth, living truthfully, and using the mind in truthful ways.

I’ve been trying to understand this for a long time, but it never clicked for me, no matter how many times I heard you use the word.

I think part of the reason is that I assumed those ideas would normally be expressed in short sentences, like in the examples above, rather than implied by a single word.

[Leo Gura]

@Anton Rogachevski What's the problem with bombing 50,000 kids?

[Anton Rogachevski]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Anton Rogachevski What's the problem with bombing 50,000 kids?

It's not moral. What does this question have to do with survival? Did these kids threaten you? Nature is brutal, many horrible things happen, but they are part of reality, this is the process of God evolving. Who said it was easy?

Edited 12 hours ago by Anton Rogachevski

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

What does this question have to do with survival?

Zionism is survival!

You guys are not connecting the dots.

[Anton Rogachevski]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Zionism is survival!

You guys are not connecting the dots.

Of course it is, if the survival of the jewish people wasn't threatened they wouldn't need Zionism. They can't just forget their identity and pretend they are not jewish. There were many Jewish people who tried that, but hitler didn't mind, he looked in the records, and found the heritage. 

Blaming the Jewish people for antisemitism is the same as blaming rape victims for being attractive to the rapist. I don't see your point.

Nationalism is a part of God's evolution on earth, he can't skip that part.

Edited 12 hours ago by Anton Rogachevski