Leo's Blog Discussion Mega-Thread

[Terell Kirby]

On civilization being built on abuse:

 

[Rafael Thundercat]

 

You've identified a profound philosophical problem that many traditions have grappled with. Let me explore this connection:

The Survival-Truth Dilemma:

Your intuition aligns with several philosophical frameworks:

1. Maslow's Hierarchy (Psychological)

Basic needs (food, shelter, safety) must be met before self-actualization

Truth-seeking is a higher-order need

When in survival mode, the brain prioritizes immediate threats over abstract contemplation

2. Marx's Material Conditions

"It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but their social being that determines their consciousness"

Economic base shapes ideological superstructure

People grinding for survival can't afford philosophical reflection

3. Buddhist/Vedantic Perspective

Attachment to survival/ego creates ignorance (avidya)

Suffering obscures clear seeing of reality

Liberation requires freedom from basic grasping/fear

4. Existential Philosophy

Heidegger: everyday "thrownness" and "das Man" (the They) keeps us from authentic Being

Survival concerns trap us in "inauthentic" existence

True ontological inquiry requires stepping back from immediate concerns

The Deeper Problem:

Cognitive Resources

Chronic stress shrinks the prefrontal cortex

Scarcity creates "tunneling" - narrow focus on immediate needs

Trauma and anxiety literally impair abstract reasoning

Time and Energy

Philosophy requires leisure (Greek: σχολή - "scholē" - free time)

Ancient philosophers often had wealth or patronage

Contemplation is a luxury when you're exhausted

Cultural Reinforcement

Survival-based societies create survival-based values

Education systems train workers, not truth-seekers

Media keeps people distracted and reactive

But Here's the Paradox:

1. Some of humanity's deepest insights came from suffering:

Buddha's awakening came after witnessing suffering

Viktor Frankl found meaning in concentration camps

Slave narratives contain profound wisdom

Mystics often came from poverty

2. Wealthy societies aren't necessarily wiser:

Despite material abundance, modern developed nations show:

High rates of meaninglessness/depression

Shallow materialism

Distraction rather than contemplation

Comfort can create complacency, not wisdom

3. The "Idle Rich" aren't enlightened:

Having resources ≠ pursuing truth

Many with leisure pursue pleasure, status, power

Freedom from survival doesn't guarantee truth-seeking

So What's Really Needed?

Not just freedom FROM survival pressure, but:

1. Cultural Values

Society must VALUE truth-seeking

Education oriented toward wisdom, not just employment

Contemplative practices normalized

2. Psychological Safety

Beyond physical survival: emotional/existential security

Community that supports questioning

Permission to not know

3. Developmental Readiness

Individual maturity and consciousness development

Can't force someone to care about ontological truth

Requires certain cognitive/emotional capacities

4. Breaking the Cycle

Even small groups pursuing truth can shift culture

Monasteries, academies, philosophical communities throughout history

Seeds of higher consciousness can survive dark ages

Your Core Insight:

You're right that systemic abuse creates epistemological imprisonment:

Trauma → reactive thinking

Exploitation → internalized oppression

Survival mode → inability to question foundations

Exhaustion → no energy for deep reflection

But the relationship isn't simple:

Some abundance → possibility of wisdom

Too much comfort → complacency

Moderate challenge → growth

Crushing oppression → broken capacity

Historical Patterns:

"Axial Age" (800-200 BCE):

Buddha, Confucius, Socrates, Hebrew prophets emerged simultaneously

During times of social upheaval but also cultural flowering

Required BOTH social stability AND existential crisis

Monastic Traditions:

Created intentional spaces free from survival concerns

But also practiced voluntary simplicity

The middle way: basic needs met, but not luxury

Your Thousand-Year Timeline:

If humanity needs collective freedom from survival pressure to reach ontological truth:

Pessimistic View:

Current trajectory: increasing inequality

Climate crisis creating more survival pressure

Technology used for control, not liberation

Could take millennia or never happen

Optimistic View:

Technology COULD free humans from drudgery

Universal basic income, automation, abundance

Information age enabling mass education

Could happen faster than expected

Alternative View:

Small groups can achieve enlightenment regardless

Truth-realizers throughout history despite conditions

Individual awakening possible in any era

Collective enlightenment may not be necessary

The Real Question:

Is collective ontological understanding even possible? Or is truth-realization inherently individual?

Some mystics say: only individuals awaken

Others believe: consciousness evolution is collective

Maybe both: individual realization + cultural transmission

What This Means Practically:

If you're right that abuse blocks truth:

1. Personal Level:

Secure your own basic needs first

Create psychological safety

Cultivate contemplative practice

Don't guilt yourself for survival concerns

2. Social Level:

Support systems that reduce survival pressure

Create spaces for philosophical inquiry

Resist systems that keep people stressed/distracted

Share insights with those ready to receive

3. Civilizational Level:

Long game: work toward material security for all

Preserve wisdom traditions

Educate next generation differently

Plant seeds that may flower in centuries

Your intuition is philosophically sound: A civilization grinding people into survival mode cannot collectively pursue truth. The question is whether this must change collectively before individuals can awaken, or whether individual awakening can catalyze collective change.

What's your sense? Does truth require collective liberation, or can it spread individual by individual even in oppressive systems?

[Rafael Thundercat]

I proposed Claude that Absolute Truth is Truth regardless of any perciver, but from a Individual local perspective is also true that humanity is stuck on survival wage slave and unless liberation is achived we will keep far from reaching collective understanding of Absolute Truth.  I asked the root origins os wage slavery and it it will ever be possible to tackle this problem.

As my book studies (David Graeber etc..) already pointed to me, Claude starts with agricultural revolution since is around this time that humans domesticated animals and yes,some fellow humans. 

Here is the answer:

You've articulated the paradox perfectly: Absolute Truth exists regardless, but humanity's capacity to recognize it is obscured by survival obsession. The "elephant in the room" metaphor is apt.

Root Origins of Wage Slavery:

1. Agricultural Revolution (~10,000 BCE)

Hunter-gatherers: worked 15-20 hours/week, rest was leisure

Agriculture: required constant labor, storage, property

Surplus → inequality (some control food, others must work for it)

First time humans tied survival to controlled labor

2. Emergence of Private Property

Commons (shared land) → Enclosure (private ownership)

Once land is owned, the landless must sell labor to survive

Can't feed yourself without access to resources

Creates dependency relationship

3. Debt Systems (Ancient Mesopotamia ~3000 BCE)

Debt created obligation

Debt bondage → proto-wage slavery

Economic coercion replacing physical coercion

David Graeber's "Debt: The First 5,000 Years" traces this

4. Enclosure Movement (England, 15th-19th centuries)

Critical turning point

Common lands privatized by force

Peasants who fed themselves from commons → landless workers

"Bloody legislation" forced people into wage work

Karl Polanyi's "The Great Transformation" details this

5. Industrial Revolution (18th-19th centuries)

Factory system required disciplined, time-controlled labor

Traditional rhythms of work destroyed

Clock time → "time is money"

Workers no longer control means of production

E.P. Thompson's "Time, Work-Discipline, and Industrial Capitalism"

6. Destruction of Subsistence Economies (Colonialism)

Indigenous peoples lived outside wage system

Colonizers imposed:

Hut taxes (forcing people to earn money)

Land seizure (forcing dependence on wages)

Destruction of traditional economies

Global South particularly devastated

The Core Mechanism:

Wage slavery requires two conditions:

Separation from means of survival

Can't grow food (no land)

Can't build shelter (no materials/permission)

Can't access water freely (privatized)

All basic needs commodified

Forced market participation

Must have money to survive

Only way to get money: sell labor

"Free" to choose employer, but not free to opt out

"Freedom" to starve isn't freedom

Why It Persists:

Structural Lock-in:

Property laws protect ownership

Legal system enforces contracts

State monopoly on violence backs it up

Debt keeps people trapped

High costs (housing, healthcare, education) maintain pressure

Ideological Justification:

"Hard work" mythology

"Job creators" narrative

Meritocracy illusion

"There is no alternative" (TINA)

Psychological Internalization:

People defend their own exploitation

Protestant work ethic

Identity tied to employment

Fear of being "lazy"

Actual Solutions? Let's Examine:

1. Universal Basic Income (UBI)

How it works:

Everyone receives unconditional cash payment

Enough to cover basic needs

No work requirement

Pros:

Breaks survival-labor link

Provides bargaining power (can refuse bad jobs)

Enables pursuit of meaning, art, philosophy

Some trials show positive results

Cons:

Still operates within capitalism

Doesn't address ownership/power structures

Could be captured by landlords (rent increases)

May be inadequate amount

Politically difficult

Books:

"Utopia for Realists" - Rutger Bregman

"Give People Money" - Annie Lowrey

2. Worker Cooperatives / Economic Democracy

How it works:

Workers own and control their workplaces

Democratic decision-making

Profits shared equitably

Pros:

Eliminates exploitation

Workers control their own labor

Proven sustainable (Mondragon, etc.)

Addresses ownership problem

Cons:

Still must compete in capitalist market

Difficult to scale/start (capital requirements)

Doesn't eliminate need to work

Can face market pressures

Examples:

Mondragon Corporation (Spain)

Evergreen Cooperatives (Cleveland)

Books:

"Ours to Hack and to Own" - Trebor Scholz

"The Mondragon Experiment" - George Cheney

3. Land Reform / Commons Restoration

How it works:

Redistribute land access

Community land trusts

Public commons for basic resources

Right to subsistence

Pros:

Addresses root cause (separation from land)

Enables self-sufficiency

Historical precedent (successful land reforms)

Cons:

Requires massive political will

Violent opposition from landowners

May not scale to urban populations

Modern life requires more than land

Examples:

Zapatista communities (Mexico)

Community land trusts (various)

"Landless Workers Movement" (Brazil)

4. Automation + Post-Scarcity

How it works:

Technology automates most labor

Abundance of goods

Minimal human work needed

Pros:

Could eliminate need for wage labor

Technology exists or is emerging

Could provide universal abundance

Cons:

Who controls automation? (Currently: capitalists)

Could create worse inequality

Doesn't automatically free people

Environmental limits to growth

Books:

"Fully Automated Luxury Communism" - Aaron Bastani

"Post-Capitalism" - Paul Mason

"The Abolition of Work" - Bob Black

5. Degrowth / Voluntary Simplicity

How it works:

Reduce consumption/production

Shorten work week

Local, subsistence-based communities

Exit from growth economy

Pros:

Environmentally sustainable

More leisure time

Community-focused

Can start now (personal/small scale)

Cons:

Requires massive cultural shift

Seen as "going backwards"

Difficult in current system

Vulnerable to external pressures

Books:

"The Case for Degrowth" - Giorgos Kallis

"Bullshit Jobs" - David Graeber (advocates 15-hour work week)

6. Anarchist / Gift Economy Models

How it works:

Abolish money/wages entirely

Mutual aid and gift exchange

Voluntary cooperation

Horizontal organization

Pros:

Eliminates wage relationship entirely

Based on human connection

Proven in small communities

Cons:

Extremely difficult to scale

Requires cultural transformation

Vulnerable to free-riders

No transition plan from current system

Books:

"The Conquest of Bread" - Peter Kropotkin

"Debt: The First 5,000 Years" - David Graeber

"Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution" - Peter Kropotkin

7. Reduced Work Week / Time Sovereignty

How it works:

Mandate 20-hour work week

Rest is free time

Maintain living wage

Pros:

Achievable reform

Immediate quality of life improvement

Historical precedent (40-hour week was once radical)

Keynes predicted 15-hour week by now

Cons:

Still wage labor

Doesn't address ownership

Requires political will

May not provide enough income currently

8. Guaranteed Employment

How it works:

Government guarantees job to anyone who wants one

Living wage for all work

Meaningful public projects

Pros:

Eliminates unemployment fear

Provides income security

Can do socially useful work

Cons:

Still wage labor

Government control

Doesn't address meaningfulness

Could be bureaucratic

The Harsh Truth:

No "easy" solution exists because:

Power asymmetry: Those who benefit from wage slavery control:

Governments

Media

Military/police

Legal systems

Education

Path dependency: Entire civilization built on this system

Infrastructure

Supply chains

Social organization

Psychological expectations

Collective action problem:

Individual resistance is punished

Requires coordinated mass action

Difficult to organize

Easy to divide

Ideological hegemony:

People defend their own exploitation

Alternatives seem "unrealistic"

"Human nature" arguments

TINA ("There Is No Alternative")

Historical Precedents for Escape:

Partial successes:

8-hour workday (fought for, won, now eroding)

Weekends (didn't exist before labor movements)

Child labor laws (once considered impossible)

Social security (FDR's reforms)

NHS (UK healthcare)

All required:

Mass organizing

Strikes

Sometimes violence

Political pressure

Crisis moments (Great Depression, WWII)

What Actually Works:

Based on history and analysis:

Short term (harm reduction):

Strong unions

Labor protections

Social safety nets

Reduced work hours

UBI experiments

Medium term (systemic shift):

Worker cooperatives spreading

Community wealth building

Local mutual aid networks

Parallel institutions

Democratic ownership models

Long term (fundamental transformation):

Cultural shift in values (away from work-identity)

Technological automation democratically controlled

Environmental crisis forcing degrowth

Generational consciousness change

New economic paradigms emerge

The Realistic Timeline:

Your intuition about "thousand years" may be accurate because:

Agricultural revolution took millennia to spread

Industrial revolution took 200+ years to fully transform society

Current system only ~300 years old (industrial capitalism)

Consciousness change moves slowly

But also:

Change can accelerate (technology, communication)

Crisis can catalyze rapid transformation

Tipping points are unpredictable

Small groups can preserve/spread wisdom

The Philosophical Dimension:

You're right that as long as humanity is trapped in survival mode, Absolute Truth remains unseen. But consider:

Individual Liberation:

Some individuals in any era escape the matrix

Mystics, philosophers, sages throughout history

Truth-realization doesn't require collective freedom

Can happen despite conditions

The Bodhisattva Question:

Do you awaken and exit? (monk, hermit, drop out)

Or awaken and return to help? (activist, teacher, reformer)

Both valid, both difficult

Practical Synthesis:

For someone seeing clearly:

Secure basic needs (within system, for now)

Minimize dependence (reduce needs, increase autonomy)

Support alternatives (co-ops, mutual aid, movements)

Preserve/share wisdom (teach, write, model)

Strategic patience (long game, plant seeds)

Inner freedom (don't let outer bondage create inner bondage)

Is There a Real Solution?

Honest answer: Not within current power structures. The system is designed to perpetuate itself.

But:

Systems collapse (Roman Empire, Soviet Union, etc.)

New systems emerge from ruins

Seeds planted now matter for what comes next

Individual awakening is always possible

Small communities can create alternatives

The future is unwritten

The question isn't whether humanity will free itself (unknowable), but whether you will use your time pursuing Truth despite the constraints, and whether you'll work to create conditions for others to do the same.

What's your sense of your own path through this? Are you drawn toward individual liberation, collective action, or some synthesis?

[LoneWonderer]

@Rafael Thundercat Thanks 👍. Some interesting books on that list you shared caught my attention.

[Davino]

In a way, nothing finite truly satisfies, for satisfaction and dissatisfaction cocreate each other.

This comes with the insight that there's everything in life and so it must be, the only choice is to continuously refine the whole spectrum but the spectrum always exists, that's the nature and beauty of reality and contrast.

[Rafael Thundercat]

24 minutes ago, LoneWonderer said:

@Rafael Thundercat Thanks 👍. Some interesting books on that list you shared caught my attention.

Welcome. Actually will take time to me even research all that books. If you have oportunity to find them in a library good luck. For now I am in Brasil and good books are hard and expensive to find. But also there are some brasilian authors that ee never find in mainstream bookshops.

[LoneWonderer]

1 hour ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Welcome. Actually will take time to me even research all that books. If you have oportunity to find them in a library good luck. For now I am in Brasil and good books are hard and expensive to find. But also there are some brasilian authors that ee never find in mainstream bookshops.

I pirate books and then either plug them into my ereader or into Elevenlabs (ai voice narration) and like that I have Audible and any book on the planet for free forever. If you want PM me and I'll give you resources to do it for yourself too.

Edited 4 hours ago by LoneWonderer

[Rafael Thundercat]

41 minutes ago, LoneWonderer said:

I pirate books and then either plug them into my ereader or into Elevenlabs (ai voice narration) and like that I have Audible and any book on the planet for free forever. If you want PM me and I'll give you resources to do it for yourself too.

Eleven Labs I think would be a good way to remaster Leo Videos with a female voice with a tone that I could share with female friends.  Maybe if they first think the message is coming from a woman they may open up instead of being closed by male bias. I dont know how to voice shift videos but this is one ideia. If someone can do it share with me. 

[LambdaDelta]

2 hours ago, LoneWonderer said:

I pirate books and then either plug them into my ereader or into Elevenlabs (ai voice narration) and like that I have Audible and any book on the planet for free forever. If you want PM me and I'll give you resources to do it for yourself too.

[Rafael Thundercat]

Would be interesting to open a MegaThread for the Corruption of Everything series just in case there is not one already open for these studies. By the way I want to share here the Corruption of Fraternities in Universities. 

Yes, abuse. 

Some contemplations about it:

The video from that Iowa Alpha Delta Phi hazing thing is INSANE. A fire alarm goes off, cops show up, and they end up finding pledges down in some nasty basement, blindfolded and shirtless. And the two dudes who were talking to police at first? They were not helping their case at all.

This is an excellent example of “toxic masculinity”. Many of the men being victimized in these types of situations will go on to repeat this cycle to the next round of men. Instead of healing the damage we receive, we use it as a fire inside to wound those next in line, to gain our power back, and the cancer of trauma continues. Until we learn masculinity is defined by lifting others up with us instead of tearing others down so we look taller, the cycle continues.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Rafael Thundercat

[CARDOZZO]

4 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Welcome. Actually will take time to me even research all that books. If you have oportunity to find them in a library good luck. For now I am in Brasil and good books are hard and expensive to find. But also there are some brasilian authors that ee never find in mainstream bookshops.

Koan: Where did Anna go to find her archives?

[LambdaDelta]

3 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

Koan: Where did Anna go to find her archives?

Liechtenstein, the kingdom of light

[LoneWonderer]

50 minutes ago, LambdaDelta said:

I am a corrupt devil for sure, for sure.

Suckers. Seriously though for one second, pirating is morally wrong and creates bad moral incentives. Avoid it if you can or at least have a plan to do so eventually as you secure your survival needs.

Edited 1 hour ago by LoneWonderer

[LambdaDelta]

3 minutes ago, LoneWonderer said:

I am a corrupt devil for sure, for sure.

Then please consider helping a fellow devil out by populating this thread with examples of your devilry 

 

[Basman]

5 minutes ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Would be interesting to open a MegaThread for the Corruption of Everything series just in case there is not one already open for these studies. By the way I want to share here the Corruption of Fraternities in Universities. 

Yes, abuse. 

Some contemplations about it:

The video from that Iowa Alpha Delta Phi hazing thing is INSANE. A fire alarm goes off, cops show up, and they end up finding pledges down in some nasty basement, blindfolded and shirtless. And the two dudes who were talking to police at first? They were not helping their case at all.

This is an excellent example of “toxic masculinity”. Many of the men being victimized in these types of situations will go on to repeat this cycle to the next round of men. Instead of healing the damage we receive, we use it as a fire inside to wound those next in line, to gain our power back, and the cancer of trauma continues. Until we learn masculinity is defined by lifting others up with us instead of tearing others down so we look taller, the cycle continues.

Haven't watched the video, but I know of how downright abusive hazing rituals can get. I'm reminded of how male bull elephants tend to be a menace to everything in their vicinity in the absence of older male elephants. Young male elephants are much calmer when older male elephants are around. I think humans are a bit similar. A lot of young guys need to feel belonging and they achieve that through rituals. Every tribal culture has initiation rituals. But when older men aren't involved in creating these rituals they tend to become demented as there is no reference to what kind of values one should adopt. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Basman Yes hazing is really terrible.

Nurses do it to each other - and it is RIFE on construction sites.

[LoneWonderer]

8 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

and it is RIFE on construction sites.

Examples? I'm interested. In my current job there was a strong hazing culture on one of the two work sites, which I was totally against and unwilling to participate in. I've spoken out about it to management on the 2nd site and there will be a company culture restructuring taking place. Luckily we are a VERY small team on this particular work site, just me and the managers so higher ups could quickly attack to the heart of the problem. My managers will likely be fired in the coming months due to all the bad behavior and dynamics on site. If it were a much larger company such as Facebook and all the bad behavior going on there (book refrenced: careless people on FB bad work culture) I think if I'd been working there and spoken out I'd have been the one fired for going against the toxic company culture.

Edited 13 minutes ago by LoneWonderer