"Abnormally low" cholesterol. Should I be worried?

[Jason Actualization]

On 6/11/2024 at 11:20 AM, aurum said:

2) Most people do not have the medical / scientific training to evaluate the validity of what you are saying. They do not even know what ApoB is, let alone all the intricacies of biochemistry. So basically you are asking people to just trust you.

Which furthermore means that most people also lack the training to evaluate the currently prevailing paradigm, yes? That said, indeed, I am asking that people trust me, which I take extremely seriously and assume with great responsibility. I wouldn't be disseminating these ideas if I didn't have full confidence in them, and if this were not a hill I would be willing to die on.

On 6/11/2024 at 11:20 AM, aurum said:

1) That's quite a strong claim. If so, then you should be working to prove what you are saying through the peer-review process.

If I had unlimited resources, I would facilitate the following:

Study 1: Quantify the concentration of lipid oxidation products present in the 1. industrial seed oils at the point of consumer acquisition (i.e., Mazola/corn oil on the shelf of Walmart) and 2. industrial seed oils used in fast food chains (i.e., the corn oil present in a deep fryer at Burger King).

Since my hypothesis is that the consumption of lipid oxidation products in the amounts quantified will promote nearly every disease that has been named, but not least, atherosclerosis, the second study I would propose would never pass an ethics board to be done in humans.

As such:

Study 2: In primates, chimpanzees for example, have 2 groups that are fed weight-adjusted amounts of the previously quantified lipid oxidation products corresponding with the average daily American intake, and 1 group that serves as the control, with nothing added to their feed. Monitor all 3 groups for plaque formation/progression via CT angiography.

12 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Will you be able to drop your seed-oil denier identity if it genuinely one day turns out that you were incorrect? 

Yes, and I will record an apology video titled "I Was Wrong" that I will post publicly and link to in a new thread on this forum, specifically in the "Health, Fitness, Nutrition, Supplements" subsection.

For that to happen, I would need to intercept evidence of one or more of the following:

1. Industrial seed oil consumption lowers rates of LDL oxidation (which is universally acknowledged as necessary for LDL to be atherosclerotic)

2. Humans directly fed oxidized cholesterol do not develop atherosclerosis, ideally those with the lowest possible ApoB.

3. Humans directly fed oxidized phytosterols do not develop atherosclerosis, ideally those with the lowest possible ApoB.

4. Eliminating them entirely from someone's diet worsens their health (yes, that means that by and large, they will no longer be consuming processed foods, but that's the entire point, i.e., that these oils embody the epitome of ultra processing)

What would you need to encounter Michael, in order to to begin advising others to never ingest industrial seed oils again?

11 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

I don't think low cholesterol levels (below the normal range) is healthy. Cholesterol is essential to so many bodily functions. Cholesterol is one of the main components of cell membranes. It is a precursor for steroids and vitamin D. Gallbladder bile is full of cholesterol. Nerves are covered with cholesterol. So Cholesterol is not all bad.

A vegan diet can cause such things. Add more fats to your diet and retest.

That's right, it's not a matter of lowering cholesterol, but rather, rendering it less susceptible to oxidation. There is actually no known mechanism by which saturated fat increases cholesterol. What actually happens has to do with decreased phytosterol intake when one transitions from a more plant-based, to a more animal-based diet, which just happens to correlate with an increased saturated fat intake. This can be appreciated upon considering the fact that saturated fat-rich, yet phytosterol-containing, coconut oil, does not affect one's lipid panel in the way that would be otherwise predict based merely on its saturated fat content (i.e., relative to the saturated fat-rich butter which is nearly devoid phytosterols). By consuming an appreciable amount of phytosterols, you actually artificially lower your cholesterol, and saturated fat simply restores it to a physiologic level.

[aurum]

21 hours ago, Jason Actualization said:

Which furthermore means that most people also lack the training to evaluate the currently prevailing paradigm, yes?

The situation is asymmetrical.

People are not putting their trust in any one individual person or idea. They are putting their trust in the institution of science and the peer-review process of thousands of medical professionals.

You are one pharmacist who lacks research to support your thinking.

And I don't say that to disparage your ideas or attack you. I say that because I believe you can do better. 

21 hours ago, Jason Actualization said:

That said, indeed, I am asking that people trust me, which I take extremely seriously and assume with great responsibility. I wouldn't be disseminating these ideas if I didn't have full confidence in them, and if this were not a hill I would be willing to die on.

I respect that and I believe you.

But I'm sorry, that's not good enough.

We are talking about atherosclerosis, one of the most deadly conditions on the planet. People will not, and should not, just believe you.

There are tons of people with all kinds of theories that feel just as strongly about them as you do. And that vast majority of them are wrong. 

This is why we have peer-review. You can criticize this process for being corrupt, subject to group-think or limited in whatever way you like. But it's still the best option that we have as a society for filtering out medical nonsense.

Research comes first, then dissemination.

21 hours ago, Jason Actualization said:

If I had unlimited resources, I would facilitate the following:

Study 1: Quantify the concentration of lipid oxidation products present in the 1. industrial seed oils at the point of consumer acquisition (i.e., Mazola/corn oil on the shelf of Walmart) and 2. industrial seed oils used in fast food chains (i.e., the corn oil present in a deep fryer at Burger King).

Since my hypothesis is that the consumption of lipid oxidation products in the amounts quantified will promote nearly every disease that has been named, but not least, atherosclerosis, the second study I would propose would never pass an ethics board to be done in humans.

As such:

Study 2: In primates, chimpanzees for example, have 2 groups that are fed weight-adjusted amounts of the previously quantified lipid oxidation products corresponding with the average daily American intake, and 1 group that serves as the control, with nothing added to their feed. Monitor all 3 groups for plaque formation/progression via CT angiography.

Great. Get a PhD, get funding and prove it.

Alternatively, you can continue to play outside the system. But I would really consider the downsides of that.

[RendHeaven]

On 6/13/2024 at 10:21 AM, aurum said:

The situation is asymmetrical.

People are not putting their trust in any one individual person or idea. They are putting their trust in the institution of science and the peer-review process of thousands of medical professionals.

You are one pharmacist who lacks research to support your thinking.

And I don't say that to disparage your ideas or attack you. I say that because I believe you can do better. 

I respect that and I believe you.

But I'm sorry, that's not good enough.

We are talking about atherosclerosis, one of the most deadly conditions on the planet. People will not, and should not, just believe you.

There are tons of people with all kinds of theories that feel just as strongly about them as you do. And that vast majority of them are wrong. 

This is why we have peer-review. You can criticize this process for being corrupt, subject to group-think or limited in whatever way you like. But it's still the best option that we have as a society for filtering out medical nonsense.

Research comes first, then dissemination.

Great. Get a PhD, get funding and prove it.

Alternatively, you can continue to play outside the system. But I would really consider the downsides of that.

@aurum As of May 2025, ChatGPT explicitly names native LDL-C as benign in the context of chronic disease, and spells out that oxidative stress is the core causative mechanism of atherosclerosis, after cross-referencing the entire collective of known human literature and looking for the most self-consistent explanation. It will also point-blank tell you to stop consuming seed oils if you specify that you want to maximize vitality and longevity.

It will do this even if you open a fresh account with no preferences in memory, and use no leading questions.

You are, of course, free to be skeptical of AI. 

Food for thought.

Edited June 1 by RendHeaven
added the bit about opening a fresh account

[aurum]

2 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

@aurum As of May 2025, ChatGPT explicitly names native LDL-C as benign in the context of chronic disease, and spells out that oxidative stress is the core causative mechanism of atherosclerosis, after cross-referencing the entire collective of known human literature and looking for the most self-consistent explanation. It will also point-blank tell you to stop consuming seed oils if you specify that you want to maximize vitality and longevity.

It will do this even if you open a fresh account with no preferences in memory, and use no leading questions.

You are, of course, free to be skeptical of AI. 

Food for thought.

Here's my results:

https://chatgpt.com/share/683c8192-5910-800c-a591-22a2e75e2433

I don't see anything particularly new here. Of course native LDL-C itself has to become oxidized, we have known this for a long time:

Also, the idea that you need to keep a balance of Omega-6 to Omega-3 is also not new. You could probably over consume seed oils, but this is hardly an indictment of the evilness of seed oils themselves.

Open to pushback.

[RendHeaven]

17 minutes ago, aurum said:

Here's my results:

https://chatgpt.com/share/683c8192-5910-800c-a591-22a2e75e2433

I don't see anything particularly new here. Of course native LDL-C itself has to become oxidized, we have known this for a long time:

@aurum Good shit. The GPT is being as PC and nonpartisan as possible but already casts doubt on seed oils and admits to oxidized lipoprotein theory and literally tells you that ghee and coconut oil are more ideal than seed oils. None of this is "new info" per se, but you could say the overton window is shifting. Just a few years ago, the consensus was that canola oil is "probably safer" than something like butter ghee or tallow due to saturated fat concerns.

On 6/10/2024 at 10:33 AM, Jason Actualization said:

1. AVOID AT ALL COSTS notable pro oxidants such as: industrial seed oils, (corn, canola, cottonseed, soybean, sunflower, safflower, ricebran and grapeseed) smoking of any sort but most notably cigarettes, alcohol ingestion, exposure to air pollution, toxic heavy metals, pesticides/herbicides, excess UV exposure and radiation, for example emitted via medical procedures such as X-rays.

2. Get more antioxidants in your system (you may prefer nuts, seeds, and leafy greens, but I prefer pomegranate juice or wild blueberries in concert with vitamin C and E supplementation). If you do opt for supplementation, please just ensure your formulation offers not merely alpha-tocopherol, but too, gamma-tocopherol in your vitamin E supplement. 500mg of Vitamin C in supplement form is all you need to take at a time, twice a day if possible.

3. Be metabolically healthy (assess your fasting insulin and/or A1c in concert with your HDL and triglycerides to put your finger on the pulse of this). The reason that poor glucose control so greatly correlates with the modern diseases of civilization is that advanced glycation end products (AGEs) often undergo further oxidative modification. Excess iron can also introduce undesired amounts of oxidation, so ensuring that your ferritin does not creep too high is furthermore prudent, as is offloading such via whole blood donations as deemed appropriate.

4. Consume, if possible, 9x more (combined) saturated and monounsaturated fat relative to polyunsaturated fat (PUFA). Given that most folks here tend to lean plant-based, I would recommend prioritizing monounsaturated fat sources that are low in PUFA, such as macadamia nuts, to accomplish this.

Jason's ONLY claim here is to avoid pro oxidants, boost antioxidants, and prioritize saturated fat over polyunsaturated fat.

By logical necessity, the action steps that follow are to eat beef and avoid seed oils (which are polyunsaturated by nature + often preoxidized through excessive heating).

run these 4 steps through your GPT discussion and it should overwhelmingly agree, though it might take issue with the absolutist tone and argue that not all PUFAs are bad (true - a minimum intake of dietary omega3 DHA and omega6 AA is critical)

I necroposted because the GPT now directly bolsters Jason's claims in this thread, to which you and michael were demanding evidence for 1 year ago.

What's different is that if you asked these questions to chatGPT in 2024, it would have told you to be wary of saturated fat

[aurum]

27 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

The GPT is being as PC and nonpartisan as possible but already casts doubt on seed oils and admits to oxidized lipoprotein theory and literally tells you that ghee and coconut oil are more ideal than seed oils. None of this is "new info" per se, but you could say the overton window is shifting. Just a few years ago, the consensus was that canola oil is "probably safer" than something like butter ghee or tallow due to saturated fat concerns.

I asked GPT a few more questions if you want to read through to get a more nuanced picture:

https://chatgpt.com/share/683c8192-5910-800c-a591-22a2e75e2433

 

The punchline seems to be that there's a tradeoff between ApoB and oxidation levels. Saturated fat is going to drive up ApoB and LDL-C, but potentially reduce oxidization. Whereas seed oils are going to lower ApoB but drive up oxidization.

So really it's a nuanced choice you've got to work out with your medical provider, depending on your unique situation. And you need to be testing.

What's your lipid panel levels? ApoB was 58 mg/dL and LDL-C was 76 mg/dL for my last test. And I'm eating meat everyday.

[RendHeaven]

32 minutes ago, aurum said:

I asked GPT a few more questions if you want to read through to get a more nuanced picture:

https://chatgpt.com/share/683c8192-5910-800c-a591-22a2e75e2433

 

The punchline seems to be that there's a tradeoff between ApoB and oxidation levels. Saturated fat is going to drive up ApoB and LDL-C, but potentially reduce oxidization. Whereas seed oils are going to lower ApoB but drive up oxidization.

So really it's a nuanced choice you've got to work out with your medical provider, depending on your unique situation. And you need to be testing.

 

Nice. Appreciate you playing along!

Funny enough, there's yet another wrinkle that Jason would add, which is that store bought ghee is usually oxidized (not many people know this), so unless you're making your own ghee from scratch, he would say to also avoid that and just use coconut oil.

32 minutes ago, aurum said:

What's your lipid panel levels? ApoB was 58 mg/dL and LDL-C was 76 mg/dL for my last test. And I'm eating meat everyday.

Yep, Jason also somehow keeps his LDL under 100 despite not even trying to (given that he's a LDL denier lmao)

For me, I haven't had bloodwork done in 2 years now, but last I checked I was at 150 mg/dl LDL-C and 1:1 Tris to HDL both sitting at 60 mg/dl. 

That test didn't come with ApoB though. I'll get a more comprehensive test done later this year

Edited June 1 by RendHeaven
typo

[RendHeaven]

https://chatgpt.com/share/683ca340-3b44-800f-926c-271d3668fac5

had to push your GPT just a little bit

[aurum]

27 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Funny enough, there's yet another wrinkle that Jason would add, which is that store bought ghee is usually oxidized (not many people know this), so unless you're making your own ghee from scratch, he would say to also avoid that and just use coconut oil.

Yeah I remember that. 

I have personally stopped with ghee. I do my cooking with EVOO.

27 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Yep, Jason also somehow keeps his LDL under 100 despite not even trying to (given that he's a LDL denier lmao)

It's probably genetics.

90% of this stuff is just what the good lord gave you. We're just tinkering around at the edges.

27 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

For me, I haven't had bloodwork done in 2 years now, but last I checked I was at 150 mg/dl LDL-C and 1:1 Tris to HDL both sitting at 60 mg/dl. 

That test didn't come with ApoB though. I'll get a more comprehensive test done later this year

150 mg/dL is kind of high my dude, are you not concerned?

27 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

https://chatgpt.com/share/683ca340-3b44-800f-926c-271d3668fac5

had to push your GPT just a little bit 

That all makes sense to me. But it also shows that you can't rely on "I will never oxidize so I will be safe!!".

No, you're going to oxidize. So pragmatically, an increase in ApoB is definitely a risk, even if you're doing all the right lifestyle things. It's just a question of how much.

[RendHeaven]

6 hours ago, aurum said:

150 mg/dL is kind of high my dude, are you not concerned?

At the moment, not at all. Every other metric is spotless and and my lived experience somehow only gets better and better each passing day.

The notion that I "risk getting heart disease down the line" has the same emotional weight as saying I "risk breaking a bone" while going climbing (technically true, but I'm still going to climb! And if I do break a bone, I'm willing to eat shit and course-correct)

I am still young, turning 26 this year. So I am aware that the real stress-test is yet to come. 

Fundamentally I have come to deep acceptance that I am a living personal experiment. I'm genuinely ok with dying earlier, if it means my time here was more enriching. But also, I don't actually expect to die earlier! That's just a contingency scenario, lol

6 hours ago, aurum said:

That all makes sense to me. But it also shows that you can't rely on "I will never oxidize so I will be safe!!".

No, you're going to oxidize. So pragmatically, an increase in ApoB is definitely a risk, even if you're doing all the right lifestyle things. It's just a question of how much.

I acknowledge this

[sholomar]

150 mg/dl is not really high at all.  Super low cholesterol could be a sign of nervous system overstimulation or stress, as many steroid hormones are produced from it and can be depleted in an overstimuated state.

https://www.holistichelp.net/blog/autonomic-nervous-system-dysfunction/

 

Edited June 2 by sholomar

[Norbert Somogyi]

As said before in the thread, cholesterol seems play a crucial role in different bodily processes. Vitamin D Synthesis, Bile Acid production (digestion of fat and fat-soluble vitamins like A,D,K,E), Cell membrane integrity and cell signaling, as well as nerve function. Correspondingly, a cholesterol level below the normal range seems to come with numerous risks related to brain and mental health, even an increased risk of hemorrhagic stroke (bleeding in the brain). Here is Gemini's assessment on the topic.

Here is also an overview of the relationship between cholesterol and (not only) vitamin D, including numerous studies referenced.

[aurum]

7 hours ago, sholomar said:

150 mg/dl is not really high at all.  Super low cholesterol could be a sign of nervous system overstimulation or stress, as many steroid hormones are produced from it and can be depleted in an overstimuated state.

https://www.holistichelp.net/blog/autonomic-nervous-system-dysfunction/

 

That's total cholesterol, not LDL-C. 

Different biomarker.

[aurum]

17 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

At the moment, not at all. Every other metric is spotless and and my lived experience somehow only gets better and better each passing day.

The notion that I "risk getting heart disease down the line" has the same emotional weight as saying I "risk breaking a bone" while going climbing (technically true, but I'm still going to climb! And if I do break a bone, I'm willing to eat shit and course-correct)

I am still young, turning 26 this year. So I am aware that the real stress-test is yet to come. 

Fundamentally I have come to deep acceptance that I am a living personal experiment. I'm genuinely ok with dying earlier, if it means my time here was more enriching. But also, I don't actually expect to die earlier! That's just a contingency scenario, lol

I acknowledge this

It's possible that by the time you are old enough to where it may catch up with you, medical science will have vastly advanced.

Trying to predict medicine in 50 years is almost impossible at this point.

[Schizophonia]

18 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

 

I am still young, turning 26 this year. So I am aware that the real stress-test is yet to come. 

 

Oh i thought you were younger for some reasons. 

[PsychedelicEagle]

@toasty7718, have you checked your testo levels? Asking cause it can drop when chol is too low (reduced fat intake).

I significantly reduced my fat intake for the last two months and my testo dropped. I'm now bumping it up again (especially mono and saturated fats, with moderation -- I was eating almost no saturated fat before). Wondering if you've noticed something similar.

Edited Wednesday at 03:42 PM by PsychedelicEagle

[Schizophonia]

2 hours ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

@toasty7718, have you checked your testo levels? Asking cause it can drop when chol is too low (reduced fat intake).

I significantly reduced my fat intake for the last two months and my testo dropped. I'm now bumping it up again (especially mono and saturated fats, with moderation -- I was eating almost no saturated fat before). Wondering if you've noticed something similar.

Did you do several blood test before and after ?

Edited Wednesday at 06:15 PM by Schizophonia

[PsychedelicEagle]

3 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Did you do several blood test before and after ?

Yes, my most recent tests were:

• 2024-01 (higher fat diet, ~110g/day, rich in mono and higher in saturates)
• 2025-01 (moderate fat, ~70g/day, but low saturated fat)
• 2025-05 (low fat diet, ~45g/day)

These are estimates since I'd have to get all the data from Cronometer to tell you the exact amounts. The reduction in cholesterol has been consistent, but testosterone also decreased.

I will test again in two months (2025-07), and for this test I will bump fat up to ~80g/day, with a slightly higher intake of mono (20-30g/day) and saturated fats (15-20g/day), keeping Omega-6 low. Note that still keeps saturated fat very low compared to a regular diet; I'm aiming for an average of 15-20g/day of saturates, which is already higher than both the 2025-01 and 2025-05 tests where I had around 8-12g/day.

PS: My maintenance caloric intake is around the 2850 kcal/day mark, so the 20g of saturates is still less than 7% of total calories, which seems optimal (according to some sources) to reduce cardiovascular disease risk long-term.

Edited Wednesday at 09:27 PM by PsychedelicEagle