Israel is being attacked

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

@Raze the ratio is horrible irregardless of source. This is how war looks like in that environment against such an enemy devoid of any honor. You don’t like the ratio that Israel has set after 7/10 then release the hostages and surrender.

Don’t overlook Hamas in this equation and all the ways in which Israel withholds itself as the more powerful party. Keep in mind that any consideration and accountability Israel has is without qualms royally exploited by Hamas

 

Not true, israel is purposefully choosing a strategy with a high civilian death ratio by allowing high civilian deaths and targeting families. They had better ratios in the past and the US had better ratios in similar operations in their war on terror.

Hamas offered to release all the hostages in exchange for the prisoners, Israel refused. Israel doesn’t care about protecting the hostages, as seen by their poor ratio, they’ve already killed hostages in their onslaught.

Hamas doesn’t care about the ratio, they understand Israel is destroying its reputation by doing this, they exploited Israel’s poor ethics and blood thirst to get them to fall into this trap.

You aren’t helping Israel by defending mass slaughter of children, you are not helping the hostages, but you are helping those who seek to destroy Israel.

Edited April 18 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze This theory doesn't make sense at all.

Israel knows it needs US (mainly) and Europe support, so it will try to overall minimize killed number.

Wereas hamas wants the west to stop Israel therefore will try to maximize killed number.

Edited April 19 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, Raze said:

had better ratios in the past

This is true.

5 hours ago, Raze said:

Israel doesn’t care about protecting the hostages,

*Netanyahu doesn't care, and probably screwed the negotiation too.

Edited April 19 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

*Netanyahu doesn't care, and probably screwed the negotiation too.

Thats so true. 

 

[ted73104]

If you look at Netanyahu's interview on the Lex Friedman Youtube channel, you can see he clearly wants to eradicate all nuclear capabilities of Iran. He claims that the reason he trying to do so is simply because Iran has stated that they want to wipe out Israel. So Netanyahu's methodology is to take out Iran's capability to wipe out Israel before the situation gets out of hand. Clearly he's in the wrong for deliberately killing generals and scientists in Iranian soil, but this is just how extreme Ben and his right-wing military leader's methods are now. And they absolutely don't care what other countries think about them.

[Nivsch]

@ted73104 Perhaps you are right that killing an Iranian general or a nuclear scientist is wrong, or at the very least may not be a useful step to prevent Iran from being nuclear.

But nuclear capabilities in the hands of such a regime might be a dangerous thing.

Wereas most likely this regime won't use this capability in practice, it is better to not take that risk.

The Iranian people have the right to enjoy whatever technologies they want, but their fanatic regime I think shouldn't have that right.

Edited April 19 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

This is true.

*Netanyahu doesn't care, and probably screwed the negotiation too.

Netanyahu is not to blame for this. Hamas still feels emboldened enough to make unreasonable demands and to reject proposal after proposal.              But this whole hostage situation is a horror show. Not knowing the fate of the hostages can drive you mad. 

[Nivsch]

2 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Netanyahu is not to blame for this. Hamas still feels emboldened enough to make unreasonable demands and to reject proposal after proposal.              But this whole hostage situation is a horror show. Not knowing the fate of the hostages can drive you mad. 

I think that hamas is indeed the main obstacle, but I fear Netanyahu takes the time purposely and does not do all that he can to make the hostages be released.

Edited April 19 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

Just now, Nivsch said:

I think that hamas is indeed the main obstacle, but I fear Netanyahu takes the time purposely and does not do all that he can to make the hostages be released.

Oke that can be a factor. Though as I understand Hamas negotiators living in luxury Qatar don't give a shit, feel very emboldened and make decisions based on a vibe of deterrence and petty whims. Right now they are not really deterred or intimidated. They don't take Israel seriously because they know Israel is accountable for upholding certain norms while they can do as they please. So this process taking a long time and necessitating steadfastness is not purely Netanyahu at play. 

After the Rafah operation, this war will enter a new phase, Maybe Hamas's negotiating positions will change then. 

[Merkabah Star]

The way the hostages have been dealt with in this conflict is appalling. It’s like BIbi just has let them all die. Those families must be so distraught. A ceasefire worked the first hostage release, it should have been followed by another ceasefire and hostage release. It didn’t need to be like it is. Hostage release should have been the top priority. 

[ted73104]

The hostages don't matter at all to the Israeli government, they only want to uproot Hamas which will not happen. The hostages provide the legitamacy for Israel's actions in Gaza and I bet were going to be sacrificed almost from the beginning. Israel is done negotiating with Hamas and only wants to totally annihilate them whilst limiting the amount of damage to themselves.

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Oke that can be a factor. Though as I understand Hamas negotiators living in luxury Qatar don't give a shit, feel very emboldened and make decisions based on a vibe of deterrence and petty whims. Right now they are not really deterred or intimidated. They don't take Israel seriously because they know Israel is accountable for upholding certain norms while they can do as they please. So this process taking a long time and necessitating steadfastness is not purely Netanyahu at play. 

After the Rafah operation, this war will enter a new phase, Maybe Hamas's negotiating positions will change then. 

Agree.

hamas has been proven to have very sophistcated protective abilities and it is not so "weak" relative to IDF in this regard.

But it isn't surprising when we think about that. When you have physical inferiority you will work for years to compensate on that.

Edited April 19 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

The way the hostages have been dealt with in this conflict is appalling. It’s like BIbi just has let them all die. Those families must be so distraught. A ceasefire worked the first hostage release, it should have been followed by another ceasefire and hostage release. It didn’t need to be like it is. Hostage release should have been the top priority. 

It has been wiledely reported that many civilians on October were killed by IDF crossfire. They have this thing called the Hannibal directive which is extremely cynical and cruel. Hannibal Directive - Wikipedia

So lets not act like they really give a shit. If they cared they would have done a second permanent ceasefire and freed all the hostages. For Israel destroying Rafah is more important the the hostages. It is comical to think they are invaded Rafah for the hostages, if they cared they would have gotten back all of them and then permanently withdraw from Gaza. 

By "they" I am referring strictly to the top leadership here, not the common population. To avoid confusions. The average Israeli cares a lot about the hostages.

Also considering that many of the firstly released hostages were reported to have lived at houses of random Gazans during their time there, it shows total lack of care to bomb Gaza so harshly. There is no telling whether you are killing some of your hostages when you bomb everything.

No wonder Israelis are mad, their government really gives no shit about the hostages.

 

Edited April 19 by Karmadhi

[Raze]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@ted73104 Perhaps you are right that killing an Iranian general or a nuclear scientist is wrong, or at the very least may not be a useful step to prevent Iran from being nuclear.

But nuclear capabilities in the hands of such a regime might be a dangerous thing.

Wereas most likely this regime won't use this capability in practice, it is better to not take that risk.

The Iranian people have the right to enjoy whatever technologies they want, but their fanatic regime I think shouldn't have that right.

Iran offered to support turning the Middle East into a nuclear weapon free zone, but the us and Israel blocked it to stop Israel’s nukes from being inspected.

Of course they will try to get nukes if another state that constantly threatens them has them.

[Nivsch]

@Raze Sounds like when the Nazi regime tried at the beginning to show they want peace or something. But again they don't represent 80% or more of the Iranians who are reasonable people.

Edited April 19 by Nivsch

[Raze]

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze Sounds like when the Nazi regime tried at the beginning to show they want peace or something. But again they don't represent 80% or more of the Iranians who are reasonable people.

They are far more reasonable than Israel regarding this and other foreign policy issues 

[Nivsch]

The way they sponsor global terror, the way they arm Hezbollah and hamas, the way they arrest rebels against the regime jail them without sentence and make them just disapear from their loved ones sometimes forever, and even this if they are lucky.

Very reasonable.

[Nivsch]

9 minutes ago, Raze said:

They are far more reasonable than Israel regarding this and other foreign policy issues 

The way they sponsor global terror, the way they arm Hezbollah and hamas, the way they arrest rebels against the regime jail them without sentence and make them just disapear from their loved ones sometimes forever, and even this if they are lucky.

The way they restrict freedom of speech, the way they oppress and arrest protestors.

Very reasonable.

Edited April 19 by Nivsch

[Raze]

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The way they sponsor global terror, the way they arm Hezbollah and hamas, the way they arrest rebels against the regime jail them without sentence and make them just disapear from their loved ones sometimes forever, and even this if they are lucky.

Very reasonable.

They support the global consensus on a two state solution, israel doesn’t and instead occupying Palestine, jailing and killing thousands 

israel developed nukes outside of the non-proliferation treaty, iran hasn’t and offered deals to remove their uranium more than once

Israel carried out assassinations of Iranian officials and scientists inside Iran and Syria risking war 

Israel has also funded terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_state-sponsored_terrorism

 

Edited April 19 by Raze

[Nivsch]

28 minutes ago, Raze said:

israel doesn’t and instead occupying Palestine

This is the giant issue of the most complicated argument ever 😝

28 minutes ago, Raze said:

jailing and killing thousands

That most of them are hamas, and the conditions of the others (suspects) I am sure not even close to the level in Iran, what does not mean they are out of problems and I am not justifying them.

28 minutes ago, Raze said:

israel developed nukes outside of the non-proliferation treaty

Israel was under a huge threat from 6 Arab countries, and are highly treatened today too though not in the same way.

28 minutes ago, Raze said:

Israel has also funded terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_state-sponsored_terrorism

I commented to this above too and for me at least those examples seem weak and subjective. I can't see much similarity to what Israel faces.

Apart from the example there that Israel sold weapon to problematic regimes that this specific example is indeed pretty solid.

May I ask from where are you?

Edited April 19 by Nivsch