Israel is being attacked

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

The process of their return is engineered top down

 

1 hour ago, zazen said:

a structure forcibly embedded rather than naturally emerging within the local environment it seeks to inhabit

So too the Palestinians at the exact same way, when most of whom came here as work immigrants for the Ottoman rule a little while before the Jews.

[Nivsch]

12 hours ago, zazen said:

The implementation of Zionism has evolved into an imposition, a structure forcibly embedded rather than naturally emerging within the local environment it seeks to inhabit. This imposition destroys Palestinian life at its worst and disrupts daily life for Palestinians at its best by making the mundane tasks of life into the militant. When traveling to work, visiting family and farming ancestral land is consistently militarized with checkpoints and surveillance, the response from those under it naturally escalates against this humiliation. Militant conditions can expect militant reactions.

I see here a struggle between two forces equally responsible for their situation and equally fueling the hate towards them.

Palestinians could take the partition plan back then.

Jews needed, and succeeded to build a strong army. Palestinians could also do this if really wanted, or if they don't want that, to develop their society for example.

Once they reject the partition plan, they have started a Jungle, and then they complain when they lost the Jungle game according to their own rules they forced on the sides.

Edited April 21 by Nivsch

[royce]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

 

So too the Palestinians at the exact same way, when most of whom came here as work immigrants for the Ottoman rule a little while before the Jews.

hahaha  

[Raze]

 

[Bobby_2021]

7 hours ago, Nivsch said:

. Palestinians could also do this is if really wanted, or if they don't want that, to develop their society for example.

Jews won't even allow Palestinians to build a freking airport. 

So Palestine couldn't do it even if they wanted. Israel would block it. 

[BlessedLion]

17 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Iran also got vital intel on how the air defence capabilities work. So the next strike is going to be even more well coordinated.

We can only hope

[Minini]

14 hours ago, Nivsch said:

So too the Palestinians at the exact same way, when most of whom came here as work immigrants for the Ottoman rule a little while before the Jews.

That's one the strangest Zionist myths I have heard so far. A literal cultural genocide which aims to erase the Palestinian identity, right and connection to their lands. The occurrence of minimal natural immigration within regions that blend in with existing societies doesn't erase the indigenous ones. That's like saying Europeans don't exist or conflating them with immigrants just because they take in some. If that's the case why would they even bother to resist when they could just return to their original homelands? 

Edited April 21 by Minini

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Minini said:

 If that's the case why would they even bother to resist when they could just return to their original homelands?

Perhaps they feel similar to the Jews that they have roots here, what I accept and won't argue with.

2 hours ago, Minini said:

take in some

This isn't some, but most. Edit: close to half.

And this isn't a myth. I have learned it myself just recently. Nobody thought me it in school.

Edited April 21 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

34 minutes ago, Minini said:

A literal cultural genocide which aims to erase the Palestinian identity, right and connection to their lands

This is a one side's (part of them) perspective.

The Palestinian identity has been created gradually during the conflict, and this is a legitimate response, but the culture here before Israel has included Jews and Arabs who were here together.

Edited April 21 by Nivsch

[Minini]

10 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Perhaps they feel similar to the Jews that they have roots here, what I accept and won't argue with.

You can't equate between a group of people that have been living in a specific area in which the sense of belonging, home, similar culture and language have existed for multiple generations, and another group that were forced to unite and claim a new identity and nationality using text book theories and religious belief.

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The Palestinian identity has been created gradually during the conflict.

So you're saying a bunch of work immigrants decided to manufacture a new culture to spite Zionists instead of just fleeing back to the homelands?  Palestinian culture has existed for a long time it's just that there was no need for it to be named and documented until it became under the threat of erasure which happened when the conflict started. 

[Danioover9000]

   Good coverage of Oeen. Shame on Israel:

 

[Nivsch]

44 minutes ago, Minini said:

another group that were forced to unite and claim a new identity and nationality using text book theories and religious belief.

Yes that exactly what happened with the Arabs here, but I don't cancel their sense of belonging to here as "theory" as you do with the Jews.

Edited April 21 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Minini said:

So you're saying a bunch of work immigrants decided to manufacture a new culture to spite Zionists instead of just fleeing back to the homelands?  Palestinian culture has existed for a long time it's just that there was no need for it to be named and documented until it became under the threat of erasure which happened when the conflict started. 

Jews were here too, even if minority.

But before that Jews were majority.

Arabs almost doubled their qunatity in the 19th century.

Also insert into the equation that Jews are Arabs live here together these days too and are highly mixed in the whole land area.

Edited April 21 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

An article from 2022 says Jews today are even slightly less then the Arabs in the whole land areas together.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/jews-now-a-minority-in-israel-and-the-territories-demographer-says/amp/

Edited April 21 by Nivsch

[Raze]

 

[tvaeli]

On 4/18/2024 at 10:33 PM, Raze said:

70% of dead Gazans are women and minors.

Do you believe every man they killed and 4% of the women and minors were Hamas? Otherwise your number makes no sense.

On 4/18/2024 at 11:38 PM, Nivsch said:

According to Gaza health ministry?

In the Soviet Union they used to say - there are lies, and there is statistics.

These numbers, even if they are true, do not make sense without facts - for example, why to build a terrorist underground base under hospital? This can protect you for a while, but when things get serious, it adds up into exactly this kind of statistics.

I don't know, why Iran is moving, but let's say it is because of such statistics - they cannot very reasonably say that don't attack Gaza terrorists, this is not so easy to say.

But I want to point out, this is a common war paradox. People are connected by area and similar look, even similar thinking, and when you definitely want to attack certain people in group, you usually cannot do this without attacking some others, whichever the means of attack. For this, you would have to see it very directly, but even then it seems that neighbors are helping them. In old times, when one person of a group - in ship or military unit - commited a crime, or other prohibited thing, they used to punish everybody or punish every 10th man, in case they did not know, who is guilty. Then, it was expected, the group will do the punishment among themselves, by themselves, to avoid further collective punishment. As we got better psychology and better strategies to identify the guilty or protect your property and ethics, this was made illegal. Over time, we expect smaller and smaller numbers of women and children killed, or civilians attacked - spy technologies, preciseness of weapons and other advanced war strategies get better, and thus it's reasonable to think that attacks go more and more directly against enemy. But this cannot be perfect and the ethics is neither perfect, because contra these murders on one side, we balance the number with killed innocent people on the other side. This is very possible that Gazans managed to fear or kill some people, who really want to be terrorists in Gaza, whatever their reasons - if they attacks are not very precise and if they cannot protect them in later court process, say, winning the process by the laws of different countries in 10 years, or pointing out how the laws are against constitution, they very probably create enemies, who are not criminals.

If we are very precise about the fact that the war must not touch civilians, we might be idealistic - in case of no dead civilians on one side, there are dead civilians on the other side, and thus the numbers cannot be "ideal". So when we count every injured civilian and murder, and reply with a murder, this might be unrealistic communication strategy and do what the Christ warned us about - a negative cycle impossible to solve. In history, there are cases of two families completely killing all of each other, because of some initial murders, as they reply every act of violence with another act of violence. As Christ taught - I'm a Buddhist, but I sometimes have to cite Christ for clarity -, this life paradox leads to need to forgive, however hard the case. So the Muslims and indeed, Israel, must balance between punishment and forgiveness somehow, as both sides have definitely killed some innocents and they cannot avoid this any more as the serious war is in process and there, in case you want to live, you must protect yourself and also continue the crime (of probabilistically killing civilians or innocent people). And indeed, the civilians could do, instead of simply following the law and being innocent, an active work with the laws and understanding each other, following the laws more than needed by the laws - with active, positive strategy, some civilians would indeed become so important on both sides, that the attacks would try to carefully avoid killing them. Neutral people are, well, neutral - it's quite neutral thing whether you see them as helpful brothers and sisters of the criminal, or you see them as innocent. To be truly innocent in terrorist area, and expect yourself be seen as human by the people, who punish the terrorist, you must do active work on human rights, peace and future friendship of the nations, or enlightened parts of them (which also helps everybody). I think in Gaza sector the human rights activists have not even managed to fight out the basic human rights, which can be deadly, but avoids the war - which is as deadly, but much more random process.

Even for the terrorists, what I figured out right now - I don't really listen much to their words, but I want to say that even from terrorist, to take this peace thing around them any seriously, I want to hear that they attack these jews with respect of the jewish people in general, and I want to see terrorists putting flowers on the graves of innocent people they have killed, because they have no more precise weapons. Israel, as well, should apologize honest muslims for innocent people, who were killed, and explain, that they could not avoid this. Whether the enemy has or has not any enlightened part right now, this enlightened part should be honored somehow, and encouraged to have the process inside to, for example, give Israel the true lists and arguments about who is a terrorist, who is "neutral", and who is actively fighting for better world and mutual understanding and friendship. I think being completely neutral is not possible and you are in terms of probability, if you are living in Gaza sector and not fighting for human rights, for example for terrorists making public apologizes about their weapons, preciseness and jewish civilians killed. I would like to see that terrorists are considering that they are attacking jewish terrorist of some kind, and making huge mistakes by attacking absolutely random positions with their weapons.

When Soviet Union and Communist Chinese Party were fighting against capitalists in other countries - I was living my 6 first years in Soviet Union and I consider it's philosophy kind of legal, I think the capitalist and communist are like yin and yang to unite someday, capitalist cannot be free and communist cannot get rich, but both things should be legal -, they found in countries they attacked some honest people to find information about locals, to find out, who is robbing the poor and who is not, and to make the lists of people and weapon targets such that the communist would minimize the number of innocent - for them - people attacked in the area. I would say terrorists are far from the law of war, but they should not give up - they should look at their own numbers of innocents killed, try to create the communication and other processes to identify the real enemy, they should try to do some legal court cases, where they don't simply accuse jews in being jews - and in Muslim history, some jews have been very much respected -; so they should follow the laws of war at least so much to have a minimal rightful activity. They should explain the innocent jews or their government, who they are accusing and in what, and give the numbers and facts about how they have developed in attacking their rightful targets and not the random people in last 10 years. I don't watch the terrorist tapes, but by what I have seen in the news and articles about these things, there is not a single sign of the terrorist taking the human right documents any seriously - if you are in the war, maybe you are really an undeveloped savage and you cannot do much, but in the modern world, you should have at least some processes and reports about how you follow the human right and the law of war, to be taken any seriously; and those "innocent" civilians - they cannot be simply neutral about civil rights and laws, because that attitude really does not involve being a citizen of some country; they should be somewhat active to develop the human rights and war laws in their very underdeveloped military. They can raport about their progress, also how they made the civilian areas separated from the military areas and communicated their lawfulness to Israel in clear and verifiable terms. If all this is done, by Iran as well in this case, their arguments would be much stronger and not the ones animal is using to protect against human.

The good start is the symbolic case - the terrorists or the Israel, they should apologize about killed civilians and put the flowers on their graves, and explain the unavoidable major force doing this. The Iran, in it's explanation for a war, should also explain their successful history in introducing the humans rights and war laws to terrorists and their areas, how they guaranteed that a legal citizen is undangered and can fight for these things in these areas, etc. What is the succesful record of Iran in managing that Israel would not need to attack innocent people - for example, if those people are killed for talking in Gaza, then there have to be numbers about how many Iran identified and saved from those conditions, inviting them to Iran, where they can be fighting for human right.

In case they are against human rights and war laws, I think there should be explanations about this and the court cases against human rights and consitution, and in case the human rights and war laws do not exist, it should be explained, by which terms they consider that their people should not be killed - is there any law, or is this just a natural instinct of both sides to fight for their survival, be it "legal" or not.

I would read a terrorist paper, where they explain the human rights and the case about whether the human rights apply only to some sides, or whether the known war laws are somehow very biased. But I see the terrorists have been fighting for so many years that it's now already expected that they give some raport about their success in developing a modern war in terms of protecting humans rights and war laws, respecting their enemy and the rights of it's innocent civilians, and becoming more and more precise about attacking exactly their war target and not the random people, even with their limited means. Otherwise, just too much more modern war is expected from Israel having no success themselves, when they talk about numbers of innocent people killed - if jews have no human rights at all, then muslims should also explain this complex law by which they expect not to be killed, and the universal and equal basis of such law, or the universal and equal case about why the universality and equality of the law would not be applied. The civilians, also, would explain, why they are neutral about this, and why they should not be saved and accidentially killed in some percentage, in case they are really unallowed to talk.

[tvaeli]

21 hours ago, Nivsch said:

An article from 2022 says Jews today are even slightly less then the Arabs in the whole land areas together.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/jews-now-a-minority-in-israel-and-the-territories-demographer-says/amp/

Then there is a lot of work to do to integrate others and find out they are "legal jews" in some sense, in being the legal cityzens of their country? Are they friendly people for the jews, and are they willing to mix their blood, understandings and family contacts in a way that jews would simply evolve and get some new blood; or are they somehow inviders? These are my questions, I don't understand it from the news I think that in the end, when the blood and cultures are mixed, Israel should somehow belong to jews and this should be the case that Israeli culture is mixed afterwards and the blood is more jewish, getting some jewish characteristics even from non-jews - I think it's really possible you get more jewish by having marriage with non-jew, if they have a characteristic jews have been wanting to have and do not have so much. Genes also have the ideals and not only the material, and there is some mental genetics about what the jews want to be. For example, aristocrats, when they had children only with their own family, finally got a genetic disorder - so the nations should be mixed with other nations, but in this process, they should receive and give away the genes in combinations that they finally got what they desired, by being their own nation, and give out what others desired; in addition to genes, nations have dreams, and genes are mere tools for those dreams, not the identifiers of the nations.

So as Americans looked for great people of the others, or like Russians are happy to mix their genetics with their respected and grand people of other nations, I hope jews find the immigrants genuinely jewish in some sense, bringing a fresh blood and culture traits, which the jews "secretly" dream of. This is the kind of positive attitude to this, which I can give - but the other cultures coming, they must then be already kind of patriots of jews, whatever are their own nations. I think in the fractal, every nation has every trait of every other nation, the balance is repeating - for example, there is a family of kings, and the one of jews, but jews also have kings and some jewish families have started behaving like royal families, acquiring and proving the traits, which would make them genuinely royal in generations and finally make the royal genes richer in their diversity and in their own characteristics. Royal genes also need to grow all the good traits of the "servants", especially as they are enlightened to democracy, however contradictory it would seem - in democracy, somehow, you can carry the ideals to the end, and this is what the royal characteristics should do, to go further with the ideals than the laws require them, and to inspire people with the newer laws. So the jews as well, they should ask about what is genuinely jewish about these immigrants.

[tvaeli]

22 hours ago, Nivsch said:

An article from 2022 says Jews today are even slightly less then the Arabs in the whole land areas together.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/jews-now-a-minority-in-israel-and-the-territories-demographer-says/amp/

But you forgot to say that non-citizens are taken into account ..from this, you can protect yourself  Made me to relax ..I'm quite neutral in this, I watch the Arab rights as well, but I don't like if the Israel is not jewish

[tvaeli]

22 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Jews were here too, even if minority.

But before that Jews were majority.

Arabs almost doubled their qunatity in the 19th century.

Also insert into the equation that Jews are Arabs live here together these days too and are highly mixed in the whole land area.

You want to "beat zionists", but you should consider that there is a yin and yang law - the zionists might be wrong, if you look at all the implications they want to bring, but to really beat them, you have to consider that they have some core of truth and even if this is underdeveloped, they win you unless you acquire the better part of this core of truth, like the yin and yang expect - if you do not contain this healthy amount of yin, it's core mission, and if you don't integrate this, they might be polar to you, but they always win. Probably they have quite narrowly their own truth right now, but you must assume you nohow "win" or "beat" this truth unless you learn this truth, make it be part of you, and then enlighten it so much that you have to kill, or mistreat others much less. Then, you can say you are legally stronger. If the minority is aggressive and violent with their truth, there are chances that it's the only thing they can do - in case you learn their basis, and do not fail their pure and true motives, you can start criticizing their means or the need to somehow ignore you in the process. You have to consider that the "enemy" is doing the work however good they can.

There is a song of Bob Marley, "Iron Lion Zion", this is even muslim-respected by the way, african muslims definitely respect him; in this song the Zion is simply a genuine word for some heaven or some level or aspect or plane of heaven. Definitely something, which well-vibrates with my spirit. I can guess this is what they originally meant, the Zionists - if you occasionally fought them down, you became an enemy of someones ideal (and not of someones shadow), and the ideals always win - if they started to fight or ignore you in the process, their heaven might not seem much to you; you have not invested there and thus you are probably left out. Things you are left out of, they are, indeed, bad  For any myth, you have to see it has all the colors. If Zion is equal to Jerusalem and Jerusalem is connected to becoming Heaven, then for example it vibrates with my Buddhist truth what Christ said, that Heaven must materialize on Earth  You have to invest in this thing and then find out, what is the shadow of this heaven and how to transcend or fight this. I think you are stupid and mad, if you want to fight against jewish heaven - that jews have some part in materializing heaven on earth is something written in all your myths, and if you leave them doing this alone, you are not probably part of it. This might be a material fact about you and them, which vibrates in such way with a religion, that it seems like a religious fact - religion is quite open about the relations, beween you and the zionist or the jew and the arab, which seem like religious arguments, the argument of religion has simply reached that point for today, and has to see some light to transcend these conflicts and find some real progress. In nature, you and the zionist, or muslim and a jew, have no conflict at all, and if you are very static about your sides in the conflict, neither side might be thankful in the end, you might be unable to explain in the process of solution, what you did and who you are and why you hate some sides so much. As a Buddhist I have to say that I definitely like the projects about heavens, and I see how they sometimes become so shadowed and start to leave people out or fight - but when they work through all those shadows, they are very shining things; even the Arab heavens.

[tvaeli]

22 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Yes that exactly what happened with the Arabs here, but I don't cancel their sense of belonging to here as "theory" as you do with the Jews.

About Arabs given the jewish identity, I think this is what you expect if you join another nation - you get some part of their identity, you read the textbooks etc. One side is liberty and right of being yourself, but the other side is that jewish nation really is something and they have some theory about what they are doing. You cannot just ignore that if you are going to live there. There is the other side of the inevitability that they cannot do that if they don't expect those things from the people joining them. The world is not only a place where you just go somewhere and live your own life, you always see something people are doing around you and with your house, your personality and plans, you are somehow a part of their culture and identity there. You have your own karma to solve, but this is not separate from karma, which is shared between people - the collective karma. So sometimes you have to have your own identity and culture long time deep in the shadow of another culture, or a need of the world and people around you, and you have to integrate and purify a lot to get your own idea and personality back, fresh and lighting, fitting into the challenges of the new culture around you.

For example, better part of aristocrats were fighting for the democratic revolution (and communist revolution is one type of democratic revolution, capitalist revolution is another - they both started some kind of civilizing process; I have somehow integrated them in me, like I have done with religions, having only some inner conflicts to solve, not many). Still, when the revolution came, they lost a lot and they become darkened, shadowed by the new culture - which, indeed, was in the state of the higher law and therefore not to be attacked by an aristocrat. What is the role and purpose in the aristocrat ideal of carrying and executing higher ideals in society and technology etc., this was initially shadowed and seeing how their long-learnt archetypes make sense in the new culture, enrichening the environment, where people are more independent, this take some good 2 generations. So this was normal for 2 generations to have a shadow, and then start to bring some culture about how their archetypes are carried out in the new society - for example, what are the characteristics and activities of people, who identify themselves with the archetype of "king" in the new society; like there are "rock kings" and "pop queens". The battles for the holy grail, the knights and the ladys, they exist on some metaphysical sense and not in the "real world"; and even there it seems it needs to be calmed down somehow. The old peasants, they need not to be commanded, but genuinely inspired ..I think the culture of war and leadership, honor and laws - they are inseparable part of royal blood and culture, but what these words means, this has to go through long and deep night in the process of democratization, before it can be goldened into something, what makes sense in the democratic process and it's ideals. Despite that the democracy itself, it's a higher form than kingdoms, carrying out every single ideal of a kingdom usually in somewhat better way.

Similarly, it's natural that a Muslim has to become a jew first, and their ideals and cultures are shadowed. Once they do this, they have to integrate their own motive, which also respects David and Salomon and integrates with a lots of jewish wisdom, and they can finally bring out their good motives and show that in culture of Israel, it is enrichening to have a new contact with another culture. Your own wisdom is not gone, when you become a part of the collective, with it's problems and opportunities, but it's having a depression with long time, maybe several generations - usually two -, and only them, after becoming a part of them, you can slowly start seeing, where they fail your own ideals and where you can really profoundly change and enrichen them. You can have an arab ideal in jewish words and this can inspire them as a new light to some matters, and so you have also served your mother nation as well.