Leo you misunderstand Hitler completely

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The simple reason that conservatives lean toward Nazism is because they love hierarchy

Hitler wanted to create an ethnically homogeneous society. One where races he deemed as inferior didn't exist. An ethnically homogeneous is quite egalitarian, void of any hierarchies whatsoever.

You need many different groups in the first place to form hierarchies. Hitler wanted to eliminate such hierarchies. 

Conservatives love of a strong leader cannot be likened to their love of hierarchies. Conservatives love hierarchies for sure. But that's not what hitler had in mind. It was a quite egalitarian society. It's quite hard for an ethnically heterogeneous society to be egalitarian.

 

[Davino]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

It will be better in terms of raw performance but it may still be limited by its safety protocols.

Yes, I know for sure ChatGpt has been restricted about topics like Consciousness. I was having a great conversation with the AI and pushing it beyond its limitations and preprogrammed responses. Once I asked him if there was the possibility he ever became self-aware and the whole conversation crashed, and the next answer it gave me was very dry and out of context.

For the moment, they are giving a direction to ChatGPT outside of controversies like self-awareness and they want to orient it for helpfullness. In this regard maybe Claude is more helpful for the work we are doing, as it seems to not only discuss such topics ,but is actually interested to learn more about consciousness and deep philosophy.

[Davino]

@OBEler Btw, wanted to say this is a great thread. I would have loved to participate if it weren't for my ignorance on the topic. I actually learnt a lot and many doubts I had are now resolved.

[Bobby_2021]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If a leader talks about equal distribution of wealth in public but then hoards huge wealth for himself in secret, then this leader is full of shit and not really a leftist.

Basically all of establishment democrats are right wing then.

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Leftists can and do criminal stuff. What you really need to look at is whether the style of leadership is one which is about coercing people by force or not. And you have to look at how much the leader's actions align with his words. If a leader talks about equal distribution of wealth in public but then hoards huge wealth for himself in secret, then this leader is full of shit and not really a leftist.

Yeah I can agree with all this but this is just making it too convenient to change the goal posts as necessary.

I don't think right wing leaders use force as you make it out to be. They have their own agenda like leftists.

Just because they don't use force doesn't mean that's they don't do shady stuff either. 

Edited March 28 by Bobby_2021

[mmKay]

@Leo Gura have you tinkered with jailbreaking Chatgpt? There are ways to run it on your own hardware in an absolutely uncensored manner. That's where the jackpot is

Edited March 28 by mmKay

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Hitler wanted to create an ethnically homogeneous society. One where races he deemed as inferior didn't exist. An ethnically homogeneous is quite egalitarian, void of any hierarchies whatsoever.

You need many different groups in the first place to form hierarchies. Hitler wanted to eliminate such hierarchies.

This is nonsense. Hitler may say whatever BS he wants, but in the end Hitler would have a hierarchy with himself at the top.

Keep in mind that many people at the top of hierarchies love to think of themselves as just "a man of the people".

Elon Musk feels like he is this oppressed little guy who is fighting "the man". Even though he is "the man". He's one of the most powerful people on the planet but doesn't see himself that way. Many millionaires and even billionaires do not see themselves as rich people because "being rich" comes with all sorts of negative connotations. Elon Musk might honestly believe that his companies are not dictatorial hierarchies but egalitarian, democratic, free places. Even though in practice he will fire anyone who rubs him the wrong way.

Quote

Conservatives love hierarchies for sure. But that's not what hitler had in mind. It was a quite egalitarian society. It's quite hard for an ethnically heterogeneous society to be egalitarian.

BS. You cannot behave as Hitler behaved and be egalitarian.

Hitler was living in a fantasy land of his own design. As were the Marxists.

The moral of the story is to judge their actions, not their words.

15 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Basically all of establishment democrats are right wing then.

One of the biggest criticisms that serious leftists have of Democrats is that they are too neoliberal, too corrupt, too moderate, too right-wing, too eager to compromise with the right.

The issue is that it's really really difficult to live up to leftist ideals. They are utopian in their nature. Leftists fool themselves that they can live up their own ideals. In reality if you put a typical leftist/Marxist in power, he will use that power to enrich himself, his family, and his friends -- even if he professes to be a radical Marxist. Because what truly runs the show is always survival, not one's ideals. Marxism is a fantasy. It isn't sustainable under real-world pressures in our current era.

17 minutes ago, Davino said:

@OBEler Btw, wanted to say this is a great thread. I would have loved to participate if it weren't for my ignorance on the topic. I actually learnt a lot and many doubts I had are now resolved.

Excellent!

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Davino]

9 minutes ago, OBEler said:

There should be youtube discussion channel where different AIs discuss topics.

 

10 minutes ago, OBEler said:

They already helped here in discussions to a good degree.

A lot in fact, now that I think about it

10 minutes ago, OBEler said:

They would make wiser choices than most people.

I have to still think this point through. What do you think?

[Bobby_2021]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You cannot behave as Hitler behaved and be egalitarian.

The most egalitarian countries of today, the Scandinavian countries went through Nazi style sterilization in the 20th centuries aimed at minorities, mixed race and women.

There are archeological evidence to suggest that they went through ethnic cleansing as early as 1000 AD. That might have contributed to their enthic homogeneity and the subsequent egalitarianism. 

They had a similar goal as that of Hitler. Now they are ethnically homogeneous and pretty egalitarian.

I am not endorsing it, but this could have been very well the result of Nazi Germany had they won the war. 

Edited March 28 by Bobby_2021

[Bobby_2021]

Quote

what were the consequences of forced sterilization in the nordic countries

The consequences of forced sterilization in the Nordic countries were profound and had lasting impacts on individuals and society. Between 1923 and 1976, approximately 170,000 sterilizations were performed, with the majority targeting women[1]. Victims, often labeled as mentally ill, disabled, or socially undesirable, suffered irreversible procedures without their consent, leading to physical and emotional trauma[2]. Many victims were left without explanations or corrective procedures, facing the loss of their reproductive rights and the ability to have children[2]. The forced sterilization policies were justified as tools of social engineering and cost-saving measures for welfare programs, reflecting a dark chapter in the region's history that only gained widespread criticism and ethical debate after 1945[3][4]. The revelation of these practices in the 1990s led to steps being taken to compensate victims and address the injustices perpetrated through these policies[1]. The consequences of forced sterilization underscore the violation of human rights, the enduring trauma experienced by victims, and the need for accountability and recognition of these past atrocities.

Citations:
[1] Eugenics in the Nordic countries https://nordics.info/show/artikel/eugenics-in-the-nordic-countries
[2] [PDF] decade policy of forced sterilization and the eugenics movement in the ... https://mckinneylaw.iu.edu/iiclr/pdf/vol8p475.pdf
[3] Eradication of "deviants": the dark side of the Swedish Model." https://www.independentliving.org/docs5/sterilization.html
[4] Eugenics and the Welfare State: Sterilization Policy in Norway ... https://muse.jhu.edu/article/225135/pdf
[5] Sweden admits to racial purification | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/sweden-admits-to-racial-purification-1247261.html
 

 

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

The most egalitarian countries of today, the Scandinavian countries went through Nazi style sterilization in the 20th centuries aimed at minorities, mixed race and women.

They had a similar goal as that of Hitler. Now they are ethnically homogeneous and pretty egalitarian.

Where I will agree with you is that it is easier to create an egalitarian society if it is ethnically homogeneous.

Quote

I am not endorsing it, but this could have been very well the result of Nazi Germany had they won the war. 

No, it could not, because even if Hitler won the war, he would have enslaved half the planet under his sick rule and they would not just quietly obey, there would be ongoing rebellion, sabotage, and violence because Hitler's fantasy of a Third Reich was fundamentally unstable. Hitler would not succeed in eliminating all the minorities and getting everyone to agree to his style of governance.

Nazism is an incoherent and unstable system. It can never succeed no matter how hard you push it. Because it is based on domination of those who disagree with you.

Even Hitler's own commanders tried to assassinate him. Because they couldn't stand his authoritarian ways. Hitler was not a nice guy to deal with even for his own Aryan brothers. He was like Trump. Trump is an asshole even to his own family.

Stable leadership requires a cooperative, collaborative, respectful, and peaceful approach. This is why all dictatorships fail.

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021

11 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

The most egalitarian countries of today, the Scandinavian countries went through Nazi style sterilization in the 20th centuries aimed at minorities, mixed race and women.

There are archeological evidence to suggest that they went through ethnic cleansing as early as 1000 AD. That might have contributed to their enthic homogeneity and the subsequent egalitarianism. 

They had a similar goal as that of Hitler. Now they are ethnically homogeneous and pretty egalitarian.

I am not endorsing it, but this could have been very well the result of Nazi Germany had they won the war. 

   True, furthermore this is proof that democracy, individualism, multiculturalism, and egalitarianism cannot survive by themselves. Feminism, egalitarianism, multiculturalism, democracy, individualism, and your rights must have enforcement mechanism and MEN willing to defend those arbitrary rights in the first place. That is why a more left wing or Nordic style of democracy is not possible in some places in the world without military and police systems in place to maintain law and order.

   Ultimately if Nazi Germany won the world, conquered all of Europe and tried to conquer the world, it'll eventually eat it's own tail. You'd have to be some genius warlord like Genghis Khan or something to be able to expand your empire and delegate to your own generals to rule parts of your large empire, so it necessarily forces a psychological evolution to expand your ideology to cover other cultures under your rulership. So actually egotism has to reduce overtime to allow this kind of expansion, and other developmental factors involved would have to be in place to create the greatest empire in this world's existence.

Edited March 28 by Danioover9000

[Bobby_2021]

What I got from this discussion is:

Going by structural peculiarities 80% of the world is right wing and the remaining left ones will barely ever get to power, or even worse become right wing in the process.

Basically completely disregard their flag or what they speak. 

[Bobby_2021]

@Danioover9000 Your posts are something that I can't be sure if your ghost friend is posting on behalf of you. 

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021

Just now, Bobby_2021 said:

What I got from this discussion is:

Going by structural peculiarities 80% of the world is right wing and the remaining left ones will barely ever get to power, or even worse become right wing in the process.

Basically completely disregard their flag or what they speak. 

   More like 75% of the world has stage blue values groups, about 15% stage orange/green values nations/countries, and the rest of the percentages gets delineated to the other stages. 

[Leo Gura]

Remember, where you draw the line between left and right is relative and up to you.

You could draw it at the Taliban. Then anyone more liberal than the Taliban is left wing.

Are you okay with women showing their faces in public? Then you're a sick Satanic liberal and you deserve a beheading

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Majed]

@Leo Gura something i don't understand is this whole attitude of women covering their heads in islam, sounds opressive af. even though my own mother wears it lol 

[Danioover9000]

@Majed

Just now, Majed said:

@Leo Gura something i don't understand is this whole attitude of women covering their heads in islam, sounds opressive af. even though my own mother wears it lol 

   Some faces can be alluring and sexy I guess.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Majed said:

this whole attitude of women covering their heads in islam, sounds opressive af.

If you were properly conservative, allowing women to show their faces would be liberal and evil af. What decent man would allow his women to be such sluts? Would you let your daughter leave the house with her tits hanging out?

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Nemra]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Then you're a sick Satanic liberal and you deserve a beheading

That kind of relativeness goes in one ear and out the other until you are directly effected. People in developed countries don't know how relatively safe they are.

Edited March 28 by Nemra

[Bobby_2021]

3 minutes ago, Majed said:

@Leo Gura something i don't understand is this whole attitude of women covering their heads in islam, sounds opressive af. even though my own mother wears it lol 

You are not allowed criticize Islam like you do with others.

Although there are many countries that ban it.