Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Raze]

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Chatgpt says that. I my opinion it forget the point of the area, the Muslim territory, that is essential to understand why this conflict never ended, when the abuse committed by the Jews is much less than Bosnia or china , and started as defense. 

Why Bosnian Muslims Did Not Turn to Extremism

The Bosnian Muslims, despite enduring genocide and the destruction of their communities, did not transform their trauma into religious militancy. Their collective response reveals how the structure of a culture—its degree of openness—determines the direction of suffering.

A European and moderate Islam
Bosnian Islam was not tribal or salafist. It was deeply European—shaped by Ottoman heritage but secularized through literacy, urban life, and coexistence. Religion was identity, not ideology. The people sought justice, not jihad.

A national, not a holy war
The Bosnian war was fought along ethnic lines—Serb, Croat, Bosniak—but its root was nationalist, not religious. When it ended, Bosnians aimed to rebuild a country, not a caliphate.

Leadership and restraint
Post-war Bosnian leaders focused on economic reconstruction and European integration. Imported jihadist groups existed, but the society rejected them. Their psychological gravity pointed toward rebuilding, not revenge.

Structural psychology of trauma
The Bosnians transformed their suffering into a future. The Palestinians, by contrast, crystallized theirs into identity. One path opens the wound toward healing; the other closes it around pain.

In essence: Bosnia’s Islam survived tragedy because its core structure was relational and open.
Palestine’s struggle persists because its structure remains closed—defined not by what it seeks to build, but by what it refuses to release.

 

The reply you’ve quoted is not just weak — it’s a masterclass in historical cherry-picking, cultural essentialism, and intellectual evasion. It doesn't meaningfully engage with the arguments it purports to respond to. Instead of grappling with the central claims — namely, that Palestinian resistance has deep secular, anti-colonial, and humanitarian roots, and that Israeli violence is not absolved by pointing at other global atrocities — the reply pivots to a sentimentalized, selective account of Bosnian restraint, as if that somehow disproves anything previously said. It doesn’t. It’s a deflection, not a rebuttal — the rhetorical equivalent of mumbling "but they’re different" after being thoroughly out-argued.

First, the claim that the Bosnians didn't turn to extremism because their "Islam was European" is a colonial fantasy dressed up as sociological analysis. It's Orientalism 101 — the idea that there’s a “good,” modern, European Islam (docile, secularized, traumatized into silence) versus a “bad,” Arab Islam (tribal, dogmatic, irrational). This isn’t analysis — it’s a lazy civilizational narrative that recycles old tropes about “open” vs. “closed” cultures with zero empirical rigor. It conveniently ignores the fact that foreign jihadists did enter Bosnia during the war, that radicalization did occur in small pockets, and that what largely prevented widespread extremism wasn’t cultural psychology but international intervention, peacekeeping forces, and the eventual promise of EU integration — none of which have ever been seriously extended to the Palestinians.

Second, the idea that Bosnians turned their trauma “toward the future” while Palestinians are “defined by pain” is an obscene trivialization of one of the most systematically brutalized populations on Earth. Palestinians are not the authors of their own statelessness, their checkpoints, their sieges, or the apartheid wall slicing through their land. They did not "choose" to crystallize around pain — they have been denied every serious opportunity to pursue a future by an occupation that destroys schools, jails children, murders journalists, and bombs refugee camps. Comparing that to a post-war Bosnia — which, while still fragile, had a peace accord, international legitimacy, and reconstruction funds — is both dishonest and cruel.

The person’s understanding of the subject? Shallow, rigid, and fundamentally unserious. They are not trying to understand the dynamics of either Bosnia or Palestine — they’re weaponizing one against the other to make a moral argument they don’t have the tools to defend on its own terms. They treat Islam not as a faith but as a psychological condition, reducing entire populations to deterministic models of behavior based on how "open" or "closed" their religion supposedly is — as though Islam in Gaza and Islam in Sarajevo are monolithic, one-dimensional, and culturally immobile.

And let’s be clear: their claim that the abuses by Israel are “much less than Bosnia or China” is not only factually disputable — it’s morally bankrupt. The magnitude of suffering is not a scoreboard for atrocity justification. Saying “Israel’s crimes aren’t as bad” is not a defense; it’s an admission of guilt cloaked in a false hierarchy of horror. It's the moral logic of a bureaucrat at a war crimes tribunal trying to shave years off a sentence by pointing to someone else who murdered more people. It’s cowardice, not argument.

In the end, this person doesn't engage in political reasoning — they peddle civilizational storytelling. They reduce complex, multi-generational conflicts to personality disorders and cultural defects. They think referencing Bosnia as an "open" Islamic culture is enough to silence the realities of settler colonialism, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing in Palestine. They can’t argue with facts, so they moralize with false binaries. They can’t see the Palestinians as full human beings, so they pathologize them as prisoners of their own religion. It’s not just intellectually weak — it’s ethically repugnant.

This isn’t the mind of a critical thinker. It’s the voice of someone terrified of moral ambiguity, desperately clinging to simplistic narratives to avoid confronting the ugly truths of occupation and oppression. In short: this person isn't debating — they're rationalizing, and doing it very badly.

[Karmadhi]

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/we-died-a-thousand-times-freed-palestinian-detainees-describe-horrific-torture/

Why are Israelis so inumane

It baffles me everyday

It seems like collective insanity

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi It is a big problem of corruption within the system which worsens after trauma. What America did after 9/11 wasn't better.

I see it as a combination of feeling superior above citizens of the so called enemy country, along with fear, rage and desire for vengeance.

It is important to remember that in both Israeli and American societies only a very small number of people are actualy capable of torturing others.

See for example Guatanamo prison:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

Edited October 15 by Nivsch

[Raze]

15 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/we-died-a-thousand-times-freed-palestinian-detainees-describe-horrific-torture/

Why are Israelis so inumane

It baffles me everyday

It seems like collective insanity

 

[Nivsch]

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/we-died-a-thousand-times-freed-palestinian-detainees-describe-horrific-torture/

Why are Israelis so inumane

It baffles me everyday

It seems like collective insanity

Baffles me too: https://x.com/ireallyhateyou/status/1978579570333757891?s=46&t=DuLUbFRQFGpB8oo7PwRglQ

 

[Breakingthewall]

In my opinion this guy has an excellent look

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPwXF4egE9F/?igsh=bDhoOW5iajZmMWNt

The war of Palestinian is victimism. That doesn't mean that being in jail two years is funny, but believing what they say is so naive.

This Muslim guy has an interesting vision

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPtjcjNEhO8/?igsh=MWYzMHNjbWVtY2I2dQ==

This ex member of Hamas understands it clearly 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPueVuzj9SE/?igsh=MWp0YWptbTE1NnBleg==

[zazen]

Infighting with some group supported by Israel:

Divide and rule, or pretext for continued ops.

[Raze]

 

 

Edited October 18 by Raze

[zazen]

On 14/10/2025 at 3:56 PM, EternalForest said:

@zazen Excellent work. Your posts are exactly the kind of indepth, nuanced political discussion I come to this subforum for. Thank you.

Thank you 😄

News from just today:

Ceasefire broken already it seems.

[Nivsch]

[Schahin]

On 16/10/2025 at 2:26 PM, Breakingthewall said:

In my opinion this guy has an excellent look

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPwXF4egE9F/?igsh=bDhoOW5iajZmMWNt

The war of Palestinian is victimism. That doesn't mean that being in jail two years is funny, but believing what they say is so naive.

This Muslim guy has an interesting vision

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPtjcjNEhO8/?igsh=MWYzMHNjbWVtY2I2dQ==

This ex member of Hamas understands it clearly 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPueVuzj9SE/?igsh=MWp0YWptbTE1NnBleg==

Just shame on you 20.000 dead children not even counting all those that were buried alive or burnt alive in the daily bombings of the most criminal army in the world that even kills children that are hungry awaiting for food.

There are so many reports of Israeli soldiers shooting children in the genitals while they were awaiting food. Why the fuck do adults with weapons in their hands shoot kids in the genitals, what kind of perverted sickness??

How fucked up are your people actually? Get out of here man. Nobody should debate with a supporter of the greatest evil.

Edited October 22 by Schahin

[Raze]

18 minutes ago, Schahin said:

Just shame on you man, 20.000 dead children not even counting all those that were buried alive or burnt alive in the daily bombings of the most criminal army in the world that even kills children that are hungry awaiting for food.

There are so many reports of Israeli soldiers shooting children in the genitals while they were awaiting food. Why the fuck do adults with weapons in their hands shoot kids in the genitals, what kind of perverted sickness??

How fucked up are your people actually? Get out of here man. Nobody should discuss with a supporter of the greatest evil

Don’t bother trying to reason with that guy, he is extremely bigoted but also a bad faith simpleton and genuinely not intelligent enough to actually process arguments. He seems to be some weird Indian BJP nationalist who gets off on israel killing Muslims due to some inferiority complex and rationalizes his bloodthirst.

If you need to fact check him just ask chatgpt to review the accuracy of his arguments in paragraph format, most of what he says can be debunked with simple google searches. He just repeats the same thing over and over regardless so there’s no point in putting effort to type out replies yourself.

Edited October 22 by Raze

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

bad faith simpleton and genuinely not intelligent

Incredible reading this clown. Why are you in a forum, eh clown? To show how moral and  warrior of justice you are?

Respect the people who think with the freedom that you lack, emo. 

Edited October 22 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Schahin said:

Just shame on you 20.000 dead children not even counting all those that were buried alive or burnt alive in the daily bombings of the most criminal army in the world that even kills children that are hungry awaiting for food.

Shit, then the British are demons who killed babies in Hamburg, and the Americans Uber demons who killed more babies in Hiroshima, and the Russians Uber Uber demons who killed babies in Alepo. Fuck, all are demons except the Palestinian, who haven't bombs, then they just rape 18 years girls, then cut their beasts alive when shouting of happiness and they burn them with gasoline for fun. 

You are right, it's very simple. Like you and raze. Very simple. 

[Raze]

37 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Shit, then the British are demons who killed babies in Hamburg, and the Americans Uber demons who killed more babies in Hiroshima, and the Russians Uber Uber demons who killed babies in Alepo. Fuck, all are demons except the Palestinian, who haven't bombs, then they just rape 18 years girls, then cut their beasts alive when shouting of happiness and they burn them with gasoline for fun. 

You are right, it's very simple. Like you and raze. Very simple. 

Israel’s own leaked data, published by The Guardian in August 2025, shows an 83% civilian death rate in Gaza — an astonishing number by any modern standard. That means for every fighter killed, four or five civilians die. These are not “tragic inevitabilities of war”; they’re the predictable results of a military campaign that treats entire neighborhoods as valid targets. When someone tries to defend that by invoking Aleppo or Hiroshima, they don’t exonerate Israel — they drag it into the same moral graveyard as the regimes responsible for those massacres.

Then there’s the grotesque recycling of the most lurid, unverified horror stories from October 7 — claims of militants “cutting off breasts” and “burning people alive while celebrating.” Credible investigations confirm atrocities by Hamas, but not these specific stories. Repeating them as fact when they’ve never been substantiated is not truth-telling; it’s demonization designed to dehumanize Palestinians so that their deaths in Gaza feel less like murder and more like “justice.” It’s propaganda, not moral clarity.

And this moral blindness cuts both ways. Israel has its own celebrations of cruelty — most infamously the “Wedding of Hate.” In that 2015 video, Jewish extremists danced at a wedding waving rifles, stabbing a photo of a Palestinian baby burned alive in the Duma arson attack, and singing songs celebrating vengeance. It was a grotesque spectacle of hatred, and though widely condemned, many Israelis dismissed it as an isolated outburst — the same excuse others use for Hamas atrocities. When your side’s extremists dance over the bodies of dead children, you don’t get to claim moral superiority.

If this person has truly “studied the issue deeply,” their reply shows intellectual decay, not development. It’s the reasoning of someone who’s learned facts only to twist them into shields for their prejudice. They parrot comparisons they don’t understand, ignore evidence they can’t stomach, and use other nations’ war crimes as permission slips for their own side’s brutality. It’s not critical thought; it’s ethical surrender dressed up as argument.

For a mature adult, this level of reasoning is pitiful. It betrays a stunted moral imagination — the inability to empathize beyond one’s tribe or to judge by universal principles instead of blood allegiance. The result is a worldview that calls slaughter “self-defense,” collective punishment “security,” and mass civilian death “unfortunate but necessary.” That’s not moral maturity; it’s moral bankruptcy.

The fact that this person imagines their reasoning to be nuanced is almost comedic. There’s nothing sophisticated about parroting century-old whataboutisms and mistaking cynicism for complexity. They wear their moral confusion like an intellectual badge of honor, sneering at anyone who simply calls mass killing wrong—as if basic decency were naïve and their mental gymnastics were deep insight. In truth, their “complexity” is a mask for shallowness: they haven’t transcended black-and-white thinking, they’ve just flipped it so that atrocity looks gray and empathy looks foolish. They confuse knowing historical trivia with understanding moral principles, and the result is a self-congratulatory fog of pseudo-analysis that would be laughable if it weren’t used to excuse the deaths of children.

[Breakingthewall]

@Raze

 Let me explain it to you in a simple way, so even person with some difficulties like you can understand: Hamas fighters hide among civilians. 

Edited October 23 by Breakingthewall

[zazen]

42 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Raze

 Let me explain it to you in a simple way, so even person with some difficulties like you can understand: Hamas fighters hide among civilians. 

It’s like saying criminals hide among New Yorker civilians - theres literally no where that isn’t a civilian area in such densley populated places. Gaza’s more densely populated than Tokyo and equal to Hong Kong. Where is Hamas supposed to fight from?

We can’t expect Hamas to come out in the open and fight like in some Western showdown lol not when one sides F35 will zap them into dust and they have tanks and armor.

Maybe they should do a UFC fight with bare fist only and no civilians get hurt but can watch instead.

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Raze

 Let me explain it to you in a simple way, so even person with some difficulties like you can understand: Hamas fighters hide among civilians. 

That argument doesn’t work on me, because unlike you I’m not a blithering simpleton who falls for the cheapest propaganda in the book.

For starters, under international law the use of human shields does not absolve the attacker of killing civilians freely. Secondly, it is defined as civilians being forced to stay in an area during active combat, not a blanket statement on all civilians living in an entire area.

Now explain to me how use of human shields explains these incidents 

1) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 

https://frames.forensic-architecture.org/gaza/updates/attacks-following-evacuation-orders-in-areas-where-civilians-were-directed-to

2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqzE4hkuee4 

https://archive.ph/W0g2A

3)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-33fccfbe-abcc-4af1-bdd2-632b2787cf59

4) 

https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/israel-intentionally-depriving-palestinians-water

https://phr.org/news/israels-extreme-restrictions-on-medical-supplies-entering-gaza-have-caused-death-and-anguish-new-study/

5)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWhNnf6cXyI

6)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cWLFvMcys0

This time actually learn to read and explain for each point, if you have so little faith in your own arguments you still can’t actually counter the evidence presented its back to AI 

Edited October 23 by Raze

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

It’s like saying criminals hide among New Yorker civilians - theres literally no where that isn’t a civilian area in such densley populated places. Gaza’s more densely populated than Tokyo and equal to Hong Kong. Where is Hamas supposed to fight from?

We can’t expect Hamas to come out in the open and fight like in some Western showdown lol not when one sides F35 will zap them into dust and they have tanks and armor.

Maybe they should do a UFC fight with bare fist only and no civilians get hurt but can watch instead.

So, what do you do if they declare war on you? Don't respond because they're hiding among the civilians? If you're in a position where you're threatened from all sides, showing weakness is a bad idea. It strengthens your enemies and paves the way for your destruction. All that morality stuff is fine, but when your existence it's at stake it disappears.