Karmadhi

Hello everyone I made a while ago a thread similar to this However back then the war not only was not as dragged out as it is now, we also did not have the same reports that we have now We now have official ICC warrants against Israel leaders, every human rights organization including the UN itself saying it is a genocide and also a death toll of over 68.000 (probably closer to 100.000). Also the leaked data that 83% of them have been civilians (not the 1 to 1 ratio Israel claimed before) So, given all of these information, why I still see people support Israel? By people i mean popular figures online, medias and even governments There has been indeed a big change in perception of Israel Most left wing Western governments are now pretty critical and even some moderate wing parties However, countries like Germany, USA and even to some extent the UK still are very supportive of Israel Cant they see how much this is damaging their credibility and standing in the world as "promoter of human rights and international law"? What do they really gain by this insane support to Israel? Lets analyze a bit Israel does not have vital natural resources like Saudi, Russia or Qatar does. Therefore cutting ties with them would not disable economical activities for Western countries. Israel is not an economic powerhouse. Their GDP per capita is indeed large but their overall GDP is nothing crazy, lower than most big western countries and therefore they would not be impacted much if they cut ties with them. Israel is not the only ally they have in the region. Qatar and Saudi and UAE are pretty ok with Western powers these days and USA has a lot of bases in these countries so they do not really need Israel as a mandatory foothold in the region. Lastly, Israel costs them a lot, especially the USA through getting aid and weapons. Weapons which could be used in Ukraine or a potential conflcit with China So, why this crazy support still? Same question for individuals like podcasters or famous people Douglas Murray, Konstantin Kisin, everyone on Talk Tv, Destiny etc all still support Israel and many of them are not even Jewish. Can someone explain it without the "Jews control the West" theory that I see more and more coming up? Lastly, before someone says "Israel has Western values". No, they do not. Western values do not include genocide, rape in prisons, torture, sniping childreen for fun nor carpet bombing nor a two tier system death pentalty, nor praising terrorist in the parliament, nor dragging people from parliament if they criticize the war nor stealing organs from dead captives nor arbitrary jailing nor stealing land nor defending religious zelots nor intentional starvation and blocking of aid etc I am asking this especially to non Jewish people as I think Jewish people will have indeed a bias to defend Israel

Then why Trump and Vance got pissed about it? Also how come the left wing Israelis support annexation which is basically illegal? I thought they were moderate two state solution people So even if Bibi leaves the overall policy wont change much

Why Israel is not making peace even though the hostages are released?

It shows the low moral development of Israeli army and leadership I am not saying all are like that but the people in power tend to have a tribal type mindset and very low moral development The law of jungle type of mindset where "you kill 1 of us, we wipe you out" which is basically 10th century morality. In 21st century we have proportionality which Israel does not care about A moral country would stop once the death toll exceeded 10.000 as it is too brutal to keep going and try another method Like ending the occupation? It never crossed their minds And close to 30.000 had died until April 2024 Fundamentally Israel has a bully mindset where they over react and basically have a jungle mindset of the type "you take my finger, I take half your body back". I doubt any advanced country would over react like that if they lost 800 civilians of theirs.

Israel has always used torture and ill treatment, ever since it has been a state. I have read tons of examples even before the 2023 conflict It is a state policy in Israel (although not admitted or codified) and it happens within Israel territories And it happens in the thousnads of cases Tell me, has UK tortured thousands of terrorist suspects within British soil? Did it do it to IRA members which were the equivalent of Hamas or Fatah for the UK If yes, was it in the thousands of cases, including childreen and common? Not a few isolated incidnets which happen everywhere. Did people loose limbs from these tortures? That is the equivalence of what we are talking here

Ukraine wants their whole land back including Crimea. They are not willing to compromise on any land. Ukraine meaning the government I think most Ukranian people are willing to compromise Talk Tv hosts or J-Tv type of channels

Dont you think dating was easier in our parents generation (meaning from 50s until 90s)? Much lower divorce rate, way less frustrated men and women and overall happier times? I am not blaming it on women per say but overall it seemed healthier and happier.

Saying 50 of them must die for 1 of us either shows deep superior complex or insanely low moral development. I do not consider the situation before as peace. Israel caused the attack because of their inhumane policies. I blame Israel as much as Hamas on this. Tons of senior figures in Israel have said it. And they have made it happen too. Most of the Nazi elite was on board with the Holocaust. There were hundreds of people who actively took part in it. Still, I have compared the situation with Palestine more to the Nazi treatment of the USSR than that of the Jews.

Funny because many Israelis dont see it that way I am pretty sure Ukraine can negotiate a deal where Russia gets the 4 oblasts and Crimea and Ukraine stays neutral but gets security guarantees So they dont loose more land in the future and Russia gets those 4 provinces and no more Ukraine in NATO It is the best deal they can realistically get It has been 2 years Russia just slowly advances, Ukraine has not gained anything We are in a war where 1 side is on life support and the other is not.

@BlueOak Why doesnt Ukraine do a peace deal like Gaza did instead of fighting still? I have seen in surveys that majority of Ukranians want to settle this in the negotiating table https://news.gallup.com/poll/693203/ukrainian-support-war-effort-collapses.aspx https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/how-many-ukrainians-support-compromise-with-1756651938.html So why not try to make peace? Of course they would have to make concessions but given their bad situation at the moment, it does not seem unreasonable What do you think? How much longer can Ukraine keep this up when they are running out of men and even many parties in Europe and USA are starting to get war fatigue Not to mention for Russia this is now a huge sunk cost so they will go all in no matter what Trump managed to get the war in Gaza to end, maybe he can do same for Ukraine

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/we-died-a-thousand-times-freed-palestinian-detainees-describe-horrific-torture/ Why are Israelis so inumane It baffles me everyday It seems like collective insanity

Most Israelis said they were being tortured and starved and everything. They already had that idea in their mind. The state of the hostages just made those claims seem false. Then why people consider it worse when a democracy is attacked? Like people like Piers Morgan say "Ukraine a democratic country". Ok How hard is it not to torture and beat up prisoners? There have been many terrorist attacks in the UK. Did they torture and starve the suspects for these attacks?

@Breakingthewall I think fundamentally because Bosnians have a state and Palestinians do not That is the fundamental difference They feel occupied and have been oppressed for decades In Bosnia they were treated ok under Yugoslavia and then there was a genocide which lasted for a few years. Palestinians have legit been born and raised under brutal occupation and they do not even have a land to go back to I think if they got a proper state, their extremism would go away with time.

I mean technically they can abuse them and beat them and they would still be equally valuable as long as they are alive and functioning. So I do not get the argument here But that is not how a democracy is supposed to act. A democracy like the UK where you live do not torture people like that even if they are suspected of terrorism. This is not democratic behavior. Not to mention it is endless cases, not a few incidents but systemic policy. To be fair I have not seen Russia treat them any better with time. They always look awful state to me the Ukranian POWs. It is very inhumane what Russia does to them. Makes sense. I agree but western style democracies are supposed to act differently not law of jungle. Otherwise, why do we see them as more "humane" forms of governance.

Hello everyone In the light of the captives being released from both sides, I wanted to discuss a bit about something I have noticed and also a lot of people are talking about That is the state of the captives that Hamas is releasing compared to the state of Palestinian captives that Israel is releasing It seems to me from the footage I have seen that the live captives that Hamas is releasing, including those of previous exchanges are in much better shape overall (no signs of physical abuse which remains in the body after torture) Now you can argue "they are smiling and waving because Hamas told them so". Sure, I am not talking about that. I am talking about the physical state of their bodies which you cannot hide. They seem pretty well fed, good hair and beard and seem pretty ok overall I think there was 1 exception, the guy who was in a picture digging his own grave that was released some months ago. That was a pretty good case of someone who has been starved and abused. But it is 1 case. Meanwhile the Palestinian ones, many of them have lost a ton of weight, have either shaved head or very messy hair/beard and some looked downright scared and traumatized Not to mention many have a lot of bruises and wounds from beatings and torture. A case I read was that one was told "your whole family died in Gaza" even though it was not true as a means to torture him and when he was released and met them he was shocked in disbelief. Others legit look traumized for life and their physical state is horrible (tons of weight lost or a lot of bruises). There were cases where they had to had limbs amputations from being chained for too long. It is quite similar to the awful state of Ukranian POWs that Russia releases in prisoner exchanges that look like they have been starved, abused and beaten. It is 1 way, I have not seen Russian POWs that Ukraine releases be in such a state. They get treated way better (I think). Same logic here. Now, I am not here to justify taking captives in the first place Both Israel and Hamas have taken captives illegally and that is awful to do, regardless of how they are treated I am not here saying Hamas is not bad for taking captives. I am happy they are being released. But I just wanted to pinpoint this thing a lot of people have talked about recently (and in previous releases for that matter) Since Israel is according to people "Western liberal democracy", I think they are not supposed to torture and misstreat people in jails even if they have committed crimes. I am not even talking about people who have been arbitrary imprisoned like doctors in Gaza for eg. But I am sure in USA for example or Europe they do not torture people accussed of terrorism or school shooters in jails What do you guys think? Is there something deeper here that we are not noticing?