Is There a Genocide in Gaza?

[samijiben]

*WARNING!! — If you ALREADY know how you're going to respond, please do NOT. This is not for you. We are interested in tackling the question of whether or not the war Israel is waging in Gaza conforms to the definition of "genocide."

As a reminder, Genocide means the deliberate destruction of a peoples. Please draw on other examples of genocide in history & compare/contrast them with what's happening in Gaza atm.

Keep in mind that, usually, in a Genocide, the population decreases & the offending party has the aim to kill civllians. 

Is this what is happening right now?

THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER!

Edited Tuesday at 08:23 PM by samijiben
Forgot to put question mark.

[Puer Aeternus]

Mm I think it an important thing to clarify!

Cause it's really become just one of those buzzwords people throw around and parrot. There's genocide in Gaza! 

But is it literal genocide in Gaza? I don't like what's happening, but I don't know if it is genocide or not.

[Inliytened1]

Here is some background on the definition of genocide and ethnic cleansing so that we can make sure we are assessing the situation properly.   This is from AI.

Genocide and ethnic cleansing are both horrific forms of mass violence and persecution targeting specific groups, but they differ primarily in their ultimate goal and legal standing. 

Genocide:

Definition: Defined legally as acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, as such.

Intent: The key element is the intent to destroy the group's existence.

Acts: Can include:

Killing members of the group.

Causing serious bodily or mental harm.

Deliberately inflicting conditions calculated to bring about destruction.

Preventing births within the group.

Forcibly transferring children to another group.

Legal Status: A distinct crime under international law, defined in the 1948 Genocide Convention. 

Ethnic Cleansing:

Definition: Refers to the forced removal of an ethnic group from a territory to create an ethnically homogeneous area.

Intent: The primary goal is the forced displacement of the group, not necessarily their complete destruction.

Methods: Can involve violence and terror-inspiring acts to compel removal, but the intention is to remove, not to exterminate the entire group.

Legal Status: Not a distinct crime under international law, but the methods used can be considered war crimes, crimes against humanity, or even genocide depending on the severity and intent. 

Key Differences:

Intent: Genocide focuses on destroying a group, while ethnic cleansing focuses on removing a group from a territory.

Legal Definition: Genocide has a defined legal framework under international law, while ethnic cleansing does not.

Scope: Genocide targets a group regardless of location, whereas ethnic cleansing is more geographically focused. 

Overlap:

Ethnic cleansing can escalate to genocide if the means used lead to mass destruction of the targeted group, and this outcome was foreseeable and intended.

Some scholars argue that ethnic cleansing, especially in its most severe forms, can be considered a type of genocide or a precursor to it. 

In summary, while both are grave crimes involving attacks on groups, genocide aims for destruction, while ethnic cleansing aims for removal from a specific territory. However, the distinction can be blurred in practice, as severe forms of ethnic cleansing can constitute genocide, and methods used in ethnic cleansing often fall under other categories of international crimes. 

Edited Tuesday at 09:00 PM by Inliytened1

[Nivsch]

After going stressfully to the shelter every time Iran launches rockets to here, it is much easier to underdstand the suffering of Gazans who don't have warnings in their phones, don't have shelters and are much more valunerable to a much more frequent bombings. This is by magnitudes more scary. Definitely NOT a genocide, but traumatizing and though reality.

Edited Tuesday at 09:03 PM by Nivsch

[PurpleTree]

Personally i don’t like the term because it’s such a buzzword of the woke ideology like colonialism, patriarchy and so on.

But it’s certainly a grave crime against humanity.

[Raze]

https://www.vox.com/politics/378913/israel-gaza-genocide-icj
 

Quote

One of the first scholars to say Israel was committing genocide was Raz Segal, a professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton University, who called it a “textbook case” in Jewish Currents just days after Hamas’s October 7, 2023, attack on Israel. Ahead of the one-year anniversary of Hamas’s attack, he told me he wished he had been wrong. 

“I fully stand behind my description of Israel’s attack on Gaza as a ‘textbook case of genocide’ because we’re still actually seeing, nearly a year into this genocidal assault, explicit and unashamed statements of intent to destroy,” he said. “The way that intent is expressed here is absolutely unprecedented.”

He said public statements by people with command authority in Israel — including state leaders, Cabinet ministers, and senior army officers — have repeatedly demonstrated genocidal intent that has been realized in the scale of the violence and destruction in Gaza. Other scholars I spoke to pointed to statements from Israeli officials last October, cited in the ICJ’s January preliminary ruling: 

Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called for a “complete siege” on Gaza and stated “we are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly,” apparently in reference to Hamas. 

Israeli President Isaac Herzog said it was “an entire nation out there that is responsible” for Hamas’s attack on Israel in reference to Palestinians. 

And Israel Katz, former Israeli minister of energy and infrastructure, vowed “no electric switch will be turned on, no water tap will be opened and no fuel truck” would enter Gaza until Hamas returned its Israeli hostages, suggesting Palestinians would face collective punishment.

Several other scholars who Vox spoke with last fall, at that point reluctant to say Israel was committing genocide as defined by the Genocide Convention, now appear to agree with Segal.

“Any early hesitation I had about applying the ‘genocide’ label to the Israeli attack on Gaza has dissipated over the past year of human slaughter and the obliteration of homes, infrastructure, and communities,” said Adam Jones, a professor of political science at the University of British Columbia who has written a textbook on genocide. “There is plenty of this demonization and dehumanization on the other side as well, but whatever peace constituency existed in Israel seems to have vanished, and there is a growing consensus for genocidal war, mass population transfer, and long-term eradication of Palestinian culture and identity.”

Among other things, Jones noted Israeli leadership’s recent plans to expel the entire remaining civilian population of northern Gaza and turn the territory into a military zone where no aid would be allowed as influencing his thinking on the issue. There is no indication of whether civilians would ever be allowed to return. This could be taken as an example of the kind of “state or organizational plan or policy” necessary to prove genocidal intent, he said. Though the plan, if it has been implemented, has not yet been seen to completion, it can still serve as evidence of intent.

Ernesto Verdeja, a professor of political science and peace studies at the University of Notre Dame, said it could be “called a genocide, even in a narrow legal sense, for several months now” given the accumulation of Israeli attacks clearly and consistently targeting the civilian population in Gaza.

A major tipping point for Verdeja and many other human rights experts was Israel’s ground offensive in Rafah in May. The Israeli military had been pushing civilians increasingly into the southern city, which connects Gaza and Egypt, telling them it was a safe zone while it pursued Hamas to the north. But by August, an estimated 44 percent of all buildings in Rafahhad been damaged or destroyed in heavy bombing. Israeli forces took over and shut down the Rafah border crossing, limiting the entry of humanitarian aid into Gaza. They killed civilians camping in tents in a humanitarian zone. When the ICJ ordered Israel to stop its offensive in Rafah, Israeli officials condemned the ruling and said it was open to interpretation, despite the fact that many human rights lawyers argued it was unambiguous. The assault on Rafah continued. 

“I wouldn’t say [Rafah was] necessarily the defining moment, but I think it’s indicative of a broader pattern where we see a genocidal campaign really crystallizing,” Verdeja said.

Michael Becker, a professor of international human rights law at Trinity College, Dublin, said, overall, the above incidents and others mean “South Africa has an ever-expanding repository of evidence that it can put before the [ICJ] as further evidence of genocidal intent,” which includes evidence suggesting Israel “has not meaningfully sought to comply” with the ICJ’s orders so far. 

https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-is-committing-genocide-in-gaza

Quote

"Can I name someone whose work I respect who doesn't consider it genocide?" said Raz Segal, an Israeli genocide researcher at Stockton University in New Jersey. "No."

Uğur Ümit Üngör, a professor at the University of Amsterdam and the NIOD Institute for War, Holocaust, and Genocide Studies, added, "I don't know them."

The interview was published the day before Nakba Day, the 77th anniversary of Palestinians' forced expulsion from their lands when Israel was established, and as the death toll in Gaza reached 53,010. At least 15,000 of those killed have been children, NRC reported. 

When it comes to defining the last 19 months in Gaza as a genocide, reported the newspaper, "even cautious voices have changed."

Israeli scholar Shmuel Lederman of Open University of Israel "opposed the genocide label" until Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government flouted the International Court of Justice's January 2024 order to prevent genocide by allowing emergency aid into Gaza and halting top officials "incendiary language on Palestinians." Israeli leaders have called Palestinians "human animals" and "Amalek"—an ancient enemy in the Hebrew Bible who Israelites were commanded to exterminate. 

Lederman also began to see his government as genocidal after the Israel Defense Forces seized control of the Rafah crossing last year, cutting off the only humanitarian aid route as international experts warned famine was imminent, and as analysts warned the true death toll in Gaza could ultimately be close to 200,000. 

"For me personally, the combination of this and the continued destruction of Gaza made the turn from harsh criticism of the crimes Israel is committing in Gaza and warnings that we are getting close to that place, to the perception that the cumulative effect of what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocidal in every sense," said Lederman on the social media platform X on Thursday. "I think the second half of 2024 is the point at which a consensus emerged among genocide researchers (as well as the human rights community) that this was genocide. Those who may have still had doubts—I estimate that they have dissipated following Israel's actions since the cease-fire was broken."

Since March, when Israel reimposed a total blockade on humanitarian aid and broke a temporary cease-fire, nearly 3,000 Palestinians have been killed in bombings, and nearly 250,000 people are now facing"extreme deprivation of food," according to the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification.

Melanie O'Brien, president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, told NRC that Israel's deliberate blockade on "food, water, shelter, and sanitation" convinced her the Netanyahu government was carrying out a genocide, while Segal pointed to "openly genocidal statements" by Israeli leaders. 

"But for all it is about the sum of what would apply separately as 'ordinary' war crimes," NRC reported. "The picture as a whole makes it a genocide. That is how the term is meant, says [British professor Martin] Shaw: 'holistic.'"

"Apart from social debate, genocide is also the subject of science," reads the article. "And that field of research, genocide studies, does not see it as a yes/no question, but as a process. Not a light switch, but a 'dimmer,' in the words of professor of Holocaust and genocide studies Uğur Ümit Üngör."

NRC noted that the Western media and political debates have been consumed with "misunderstandings and simplifications."

Those who continue defending Israel's actions insist that "it is a military war to destroy Hamas, there is no clear eradication plan, not all Gazans have been killed, it does not look like the Holocaust, the judge has not yet ruled."

As historian Rutger Bregman said on X Thursday, the scholars interviews by NRC make clear: "Genocide is a process, it's not a binary switch. And it's not about matching the Holocaust."

https://archive.ph/Po29L
 

Quote

What is happening in Gaza is not the Holocaust. There is no Auschwitz and no Treblinka there. However, it is a crime from the same family – a crime of genocide.

Prof. Daniel Blatman and Prof. Amos Goldberg are historians of the Holocaust and genocide studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

 

[samijiben]

@Raze please tell why Israel is comitting a genocide in Gaza in your own words.

[Raze]

10 minutes ago, samijiben said:

@Raze please tell why Israel is comitting a genocide in Gaza in your own words.

Genocide is defined as “the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.”

Israel has said the goal is to expel Gazans, multiple Israeli officials said things like “there are no uninvolved civilians”, and has blocked food and medicine, and destroyed most civilian infrastructure, indicating they’re trying to destroy Gazas population as a whole.

[samijiben]

@Raze thank you

to be clear, I am not interested in argument or debate. Just discussion.

[Wilhelm44]

What are you trying to achieve with this thread, are you looking for a nicer description of what's happening in Gaza ? 

[samijiben]

@Wilhelm44 no, I am trying to see if is genocide or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wilhelm44]

4 minutes ago, samijiben said:

@Wilhelm44 no, I am trying to see if is genocide or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I take it that you are associated with Israel in some way ?

[Wilhelm44]

Stop trying to deny or soften the severity of what's happening in Gaza, by playing around with words.

[Wilhelm44]

Everyone grows up thinking their country is the good guys. So it's a bitter pill to swallow when your country is involved in some bad shit. Trust me, i know, im Afrikaans, the white South Africans that invented Apartheid. But why are we shocked really ? Instead of being in denial, it's another opportunity to integrate All of yourself.

[Puer Aeternus]

17 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I take it that you are associated with Israel in some way ?

 

14 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Stop trying to deny or soften the severity of what's happening in Gaza, by playing around with words.

Why you making that assumption immediately and putting bad intentions on him? You don't know what he was thinking. Maybe he just wants to know what's up?

There's understandably a lot of emotionally loaded discussion around Israel/Gaza situation, so I could understand someone wanting to seek clarity through the smokescreen.

[Wilhelm44]

2 minutes ago, Puer Aeternus said:

 

Why you making that assumption immediately and putting bad intentions on him? You don't know what he was thinking. Maybe he just wants to know what's up?

There's understandably a lot of emotionally loaded discussion around Israel/Gaza situation, so I could understand someone wanting to seek clarity through the smokescreen.

Im speaking truth, sorry if it hurts. 

[samijiben]

Thank you for your passion, Wilhelm.

I am not trying to downplay the evil transpiring in Gaza.

No, in fact, the purpose of this thread was to discuss whether or not what Israel is doing is genocide.

Is it evil? Undoubtedly so! Is it genocide? Uhhhhh, Idk! That's why I'm asking! What say ye?

@Wilhelm44

 

 

 

 

[Wilhelm44]

2 minutes ago, samijiben said:

Thank you for your passion, Wilhelm.

I am not trying to downplay the evil transpiring in Gaza.

No, in fact, the purpose of this thread was to discuss whether or not what Israel is doing is genocide.

Is it evil? Undoubtedly so! Is it genocide? Uhhhhh, Idk! That's why I'm asking! What say ye?

@Wilhelm44

 

 

 

 

I hear you, lets be honest though ? Do you not have any affilliation with Israel whatsoever ? Because to whom really will it make a difference wether this is labelled as genocide or not ? Certainly not to the people of Gaza. Logically it could only make a difference to someone associated with Israel, ie to ease their minds a bit. I really dont have a dog in this fight. But its very clear to me that there's a lot of denial happening around this topic at the moment. And as i said earlier, it's understandable, but actually not neccessary, because everyone has a Jesus and a Hitler within.

[samijiben]

Sir Wilhelm,

My affiliation with Israel is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is commiting genocide.

I am not playing around with words. I am trying to reverse the stupidity that is playing around with words. If any words shan't be thrown around flippantly, it is genocide.

Brother, please, let us refrain from finger pointing & accusation. Nowhere did I mention or imply anything other than the genuine curiosity to ask & answer a question.

 

 

 

[Wilhelm44]

16 minutes ago, samijiben said:

Sir Wilhelm,

My affiliation with Israel is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is commiting genocide.

I am not playing around with words. I am trying to reverse the stupidity that is playing around with words. If any words shan't be thrown around flippantly, it is genocide.

Brother, please, let us refrain from finger pointing & accusation. Nowhere did I mention or imply anything other than the genuine curiosity to ask & answer a question.

 

 

 

Im not sure how i have been finger pointing, but the fact that your unwilling to say wether you have an affilliation with Israel or not, means that it might be relevant to your motivation for starting this thread. Gaza is being destroyed left right and centre. What difference will it make wether its labelled as genocide or not. Was the Holocaust really bad or just bad ? Can you see how this discussion is a little bit insulting to the suffering happening right now ?