New War In Israel / Gaza

[Yousif]

9 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Yousif I dont understand this game of justified or not justified.

I wish nobody innocent would have been killed. Of course. But this is impossible.

But it’s not, it’s a choice your government made, and you’re with them on it, again u can’t control the government, but you can control not supporting murder.

 

 

[Nivsch]

3 minutes ago, Yousif said:

But it’s not, it’s a choice your government made, and you’re with them on it, again u can’t control the government, but you can control not supporting murder.

By your logic we must not agree with the Allied attacks on Germany because then we justified murder of innocent. Sorry but this is absurd.

Edited February 17 by Nivsch

[Yousif]

45 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

By your logic we must not agree with the Allied attacks on Germany because then we justified murder of innocent. Sorry but this is absurd.

you keep talking collectively while ignoring the individual aspect of the problem, i don’t care who did what, all I know is killing innocent people is a crime and whoever did it is a murderer, now if that happens collectively or individually it does not matter. 

that’s that problem that the east has with the west, they created laws and human rights, but then they themselves don’t follow them which is exactly the point that hamas succeeded in doing at the cost of innocent peoples lives, 

It’s the problem of? Who’s gonna guard the guards? 
 

Both collective and individual points of view is correct, choosing one side over the other is wrong, you’ll fall into duality, and you become delusional, unable to see the truth of the matter, or take responsibility for it instead of justifying it.

[zurew]

@Yousif without virtue signaling and rambling about non-duality can you give an exact, concise plan what should Israel do?

[Yousif]

@Nivsch here’s what I want you to see:- 

What hamas did was wrong was wrong and it is a terrorist attack, I understand. 
 

but they way you’re doing things to innocent civilians and the whole city in general says :- 

“ yeah, you’re a terrorist, but I’m more of a terrorist than you “ 

you don’t put out fire with fire 

You don’t do exactly what they did and even worse and then acts like they’re the only bad guys, you’re just as bad if not more if we look at the innocent citizens that have died from BOTH SIDES. 
 

your whole reason for this war is because they killed innocent Israeli people, 

so what you do isyou go copy the ugly thing they did to you? 
 

Do you see how you’re making more cruelty, 

what you’re doing is not justice 

its vengeance. 
you get nothing out of vengeance, you only become the very thing you want revenge on. 

[Yousif]

6 minutes ago, zurew said:

@Yousif without virtue signaling and rambling about non-duality can you give an exact, concise plan what should Israel do?

It’s not my job to tell you what to do, but I took it upon myself to remind you that killing innocent people is a crime punishable by law, just looking out for a fellow friend.

[Nivsch]

@Yousif How would you call the Allied attack on Germany in WW2?

Would you think they are as bad as the Nazis? 

But I can understand you in the way that if some Israelis are so in rage that call for killing of palestinians in general, then yes, those people who say this are in danger of thinking too similar to the terrorists. So I understand you here.

Edited February 17 by Nivsch

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, Yousif said:

It’s not my job to tell you what to do, but I took it upon myself to remind you that killing innocent people is a crime punishable by law, just looking out for a fellow friend.

Yeah this is virtue signaling - literally everyone knows this, but war comes with the killing of innocent lives and what you don't take into account is that being passive sometimes can bring more innocent deaths than engaging in wars - thats why you need to drop the platitudes and come back to real life and try to actually analyze and engage with the situation so that you can come up with the best strategy according to your knowledge that can actually minimize the global suffering and death long term.

[Yousif]

8 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yeah this is virtue signaling - literally everyone knows this, but war comes with the killing of innocent lives and what you don't take into account is that being passive sometimes can bring more innocent deaths than engaging in wars - thats why you need to drop the platitudes and come back to real life and try to actually analyze and engage with the situation so that you can come up with the best strategy according to your knowledge that can actually minimize the global suffering and death long term.

There’s such a thing as war crimes which is what you’re doing but refuse to admit and nobody is putting you on the spot because the U.S. and russia are doing the same thing. 
 

there are higher implications that you’re not getting like you cannot put out fire with fire, which means you’re gonna safe the earth from peace by copying the terrorist, 

I’m not fucking theorizing, you don’t put an end to bullying by becoming more of a bully, you’re feeding into this shit. 

 

[zurew]

@Yousif Yeah as I thought, you have nothing of substance to contribute to any of the conflict - you are here to give platitudes (that everyone knows) and to virtue signal.

The problem with what you are doing is that you are derailing the thread and stopping other people from having a substantive conversation.

[Rafael Thundercat]

 

[Yousif]

Just like the U.S. you go ahead and self justify whatever you want, doing what the terrorist  Are doing is just more terrorism, Israel are following the steps of thr U.S. and will be just like the U.S. in the sense that everyone knows it’s the bad guy when it comes to the war in iraq, but the Americans keep being self centered, thinking they’re the good guys, ignore the millions they killed, but it will forever remain in their conscience until they take responsibility and change, you go ahead and believe whatever you want, no amount of talking will get you out of your self centered self, the only thing to do is let your conscience and your guilt sense Guide you to the truth, nobody can really help you but you.

 

 

[Yousif]

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

@Yousif Yeah as I thought, you have nothing of substance to contribute to any of the conflict - you are here to give platitudes (that everyone knows) and to virtue signal.

The problem with what you are doing is that you are derailing the thread and stopping other people from having a substantive conversation.

There’s no such a thing as substance, all there is is truth, which is what I’m speaking and you’re denying.

[Raze]

55 minutes ago, zurew said:

@Yousif without virtue signaling and rambling about non-duality can you give an exact, concise plan what should Israel do?

1. Stop the illegal occupation of the West Bank and give them a state, the PLO gave up violence long ago and they can agree to have a mutually agreed upon third party take over security, remove or at least start controlling the settlers who have murdered hundreds. A major reason why Palestinians continue to turn to violence is because Israel’s refusal for a two state solution and protecting settlers makes them see no future, this would remove that.

2. Start a cease fire in exchange for giving up Israel’s hostages in exchange for Hamas’s hostages, the war has killed dozens. And yes Israel has hostages, they legalized taking bargaining chips and hold hundreds of Palestinians without charges. https://www.amnesty.org/es/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/mde150541998en.pdf

Every country in the world except for Israel and the USA has called for a cease fire, not having one has so far killed dozens of Israeli hostages and over 13k children (this is the equivalent of how many people died on 9/11 x4.3 but in just children). Not to mention the blockade and aid restriction and risking famine / causing hundreds of children to undergo amputation without anesthesia. It is barbaric and risking triggering a much larger war.
 

3. Propose to Hamas to turn Gaza into a state and end the illegal blockade if they agree to put down their arms and let a mutually agreed upon third party take over security. If Hamas doesn’t agree they risk being overthrown by Gazans who now see a way out and see life improving in the West Bank.

4. Have war crime trials for the leadership on both sides with a unbiased mutually agreed upon third party court.

5. Iran proposed to turn the Middle East into a nuclear free zone, Israel should offer to take them up on it if they let Israel make a peace treaty with Hezbollah. Right now Israel is one of the biggest risks of triggering a nuclear conflict because they have uninspected nukes and have war risk with many border states.

Edited February 17 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze And what do you think made PLO to stop the terror and start co-operate with Israel? The war Israel started in 2002 against hamas in the West Bank that lasts couple of years.

Then now you just suggest the soldiers out of Gaza and hamas to re-arm and everything to go back to how it was in oct 6th?

[zurew]

@Yousif - see what @Raze did there? He actually made points and he directly engaged with the question that was asked to you.

 

Once you grow out of your non-dual-rambling-wannabe-guru phase, maybe you will be capable to do that to, but until then - I will stop engaging with you, because its a total waste of everyones time.

[Raze]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze And what do you think made PLO to stop the terror and start co-operate with Israel? The war Israel started in 2002 against hamas in the West Bank that lasts couple of years.

Then now you just suggest the soldiers out of Gaza and hamas to re-arm and everything to go back to how it was in oct 6th?

1. Why would Gazans ever agree to give up violence if after the PLO did they get treated like that? Hamas is even more popular in the West Bank now than in Gaza, there is a risk of the West Bank turning into a larger Gaza if this continue this way.

A major factor in giving up military actions was the Oslo accords which gave hope for a state, this has been crushed.
 

2. Most military analysts and even officials in Israel’s government don’t believe Israel can defeat Hamas militarily, even if they do the amount of orphans created and the anger generated towards is Israel in Iran, Egypt, and Jordan will just result in the creation of a new violent faction as it’s creating the same conditions that caused the creation of Hamas. A large recruitment pool frustrated by occupation, and foreign backers motivated to smuggle them arms.

Edited February 17 by Raze

[Vrubel]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What does it say about your government if even with their best intentions they are not more accurate than terrorists?

On 16/02/2024 at 0:00 PM, Leo Gura said:

The civilian to combatant ratio on Oct 7th was something like 2:1.

Irrelevant, Hamas would gladly commit a Holocaust, obviously at some point, they had to confront soldiers. 

[Nivsch]

@Raze 1. PLO has been treated good by Israel. I dont understand what you mean.

Oslo agreement made the terror much worse by the way, and also the following agreements in the 90's were great and gave a lot of hope to the Palestinians.

What was their answer to that? 2nd Intifada.

2. Iran is the main israel's enemy. What are you talking about? Their regime (not the Iranians) wants to erase Israel from the map regardless of what Israel does or doesnt.

Edited February 17 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is an ancient Chinese saying:

Don't use cannon to kill mosquito.

Hamas are no mosquitoes, rockets vs Iron Dome are mosquitoes but not 7.10. A better analogy would be a tumor that has to be painfully removed. 
 

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Rats must be managed, not eliminated.

That was the entire strategy before 7/10. There was the deadly assumption that Hamas would get attached to their wealth and governing Gaza, in other words, become rational players. After 7/10 they have to be removed for starkly obvious reasons. 

Every innocent killed is one too many if he was truly innocent. But what is the alternative? It's also silly how people see Hamas as some kind of child with no responsibility. This is true in the sense they are unable to hold responsibility but then that is gaslighted fully onto Israel which is a form of perversion equivalent of putting the blame on Britain for starting WW2. 

Edited February 17 by Vrubel