New War In Israel / Gaza

[Raze]

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You are misunderstanding my position. I think the palestinian perspective is valid, but I also believe the Israeli perspective is valid. What HAMAS did was not justified however, nor did it achieve anything but more suffering.

 

There is no situation where you occupy and regularly torture and randomly kill civilians of a population and constantly insult and desecrate them, and they don’t lash out. Israel isn’t going to try and create peace because it needs these attacks to happen because it justifies them in slowly having an excuse to further and further reduce and eventually destroy Palestine.

 

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

There is no situation where you occupy and regularly torture and randomly kill civilians of a population and constantly insult and desecrate them, and they don’t lash out. Israel isn’t going to try and create peace because it needs these attacks to happen because it justifies them in slowly having an excuse to further and further reduce and eventually destroy Palestine.

 

That's delusional, they are doing just fine using the means they have been for the past decades.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Scholar

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

That's delusional.

If Israel is justified because they don’t want to get “genocided again” (that’s ridiculous, HAMAS has 0 ability to do that), by that logic then HAMAS is justified because Palestinians are actively getting ethnically cleansed right now. Israel is actively colonizing Palestine, Palestinians are slaughtered regularly.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Raze

[PurpleTree]

seems like today is a catalyst for change

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Like I said you are looking at this from a lense that makes no sense. Israel is under existential threat due to almost every actor in the middle east wanting to wipe the jews from the planet.

Israel doesn't care about your petty moral views, they are trying not to get genocided again, and they will do what is necessary to achieve that. They have far better justifications for their unfair treatment of palestinians than you have for eating animal products.

 

There is no strict morality that you can just apply across the board from your western lense.

   Why are you conflating and assuming me as some meat eater to Israel having their unjustified justifications for their treatment of Palestinians?

   So because Israel's self preservation, ethnocentric identity, are under existential threat, that this justifies them oppressing and deporting Palestinians to Gaza?

   Is there no strict morality I can't apply? What about moral objectivity, that there's objectively a big difference in power between Israel and Palestine?

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, Raze said:

If Israel is justified because they don’t want to get “genocided again” (that’s ridiculous, HAMAS has 0 ability to do that), by that logic then HAMAS is justified because Palestinians are actively getting ethnically cleansed right now. Israel is actively colonizing Palestine, Palestinians are slaughtered regularly.

Colonization doesn't justify the type of terrorism HAMAS is engaging it. First and foremost, you have a moral duty to your own people rather than to bask in self-righteous acts of terror that will only bring more harm to your people. HAMAS isn't doing this so palestinians can prosper, that's not how they operate, they are ideologically driven and funded by states like Iran to be used as pawns.

HAMAS is not the major threat to Israel, the neighbouring nationstates to israel are, and they are, in principle, willing to wipe out the jewish population if the opportunity presents itself.

 

Palestinians don't get randomly slaughtered, there is obviously an active conflict going on. And yes, the Israeli are in power, so of course they will dominate the plaestinians. You are too biased to recognized this, but Israel is actually acting in farely high moral character considering the situation that is presented to them. I don't presume I would fare much better in the situation, and I know for certain that if you were in the situation, it would be hell on earth.

[Raze]

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Colonization doesn't justify the type of terrorism HAMAS is engaging it. First and foremost, you have a moral duty to your own people rather than to bask in self-righteous acts of terror that will only bring more harm to your people. HAMAS isn't doing this so palestinians can prosper, that's not how they operate, they are ideologically driven and funded by states like Iran to be used as pawns.

HAMAS is not the major threat to Israel, the neighbouring nationstates to israel are, and they are, in principle, willing to wipe out the jewish population if the opportunity presents itself.

 

Palestinians don't get randomly slaughtered, there is obviously an active conflict going on. And yes, the Israeli are in power, so of course they will dominate the plaestinians. You are too biased to recognized this, but Israel is actually acting in farely high moral character considering the situation that is presented to them. I don't presume I would fare much better in the situation, and I know for certain that if you were in the situation, it would be hell on earth.

I’m not saying HAMAS is justified, I’m saying if Israel is justified, HAMAS certainly is. 

Israel has not even attempted to really create peace, they have only put greed and nationalism above even there own safety, which is why attacks like this still happen at all , it’s not high moral character to continually provoke and attack a hostile population, and it certainly isn’t making Israeli’s safer.

Last year they literally burned a major mosque and a huge crowd of Israeli settlers where dancing in celebration under the fire. I’m pretty sure HAMAS has said that was a major motivation for this attack. Again, putting nationalism over even their own safety.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Raze

[Scholar]

10 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   So because Israel's self preservation, ethnocentric identity, are under existential threat, that this justifies them oppressing and deporting Palestinians to Gaza?

Of course, you would murder endless beings for your own self-preservation, like I said, you are not a vegan and even if you were, you still torture and wipe out other living individuals for your own convinience. You are just too biased to see this.

 

11 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Why are you conflating and assuming me as some meat eater to Israel having their unjustified justifications for their treatment of Palestinians?

I am saying you are delusional in the way you apply your moral standards. You would act far worse if you were in the position of the israeli's, that's what you are not grasping, because you are so cushioned from the actual forces of evolution that you can afford to be in a position where you don't have to make significant moral choices that actually carry weight for you and others.

 

13 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 Is there no strict morality I can't apply? What about moral objectivity, that there's objectively a big difference in power between Israel and Palestine?

The difference between the worst ethnonationalist Israelite and a Palestine civilian is smaller than between you and a vegan.

[Leo Gura]

33 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I don't presume I would fare much better in the situation

And how much better would you fare if you were a Palestinian?

Terror is bad, however people are not driven to terror by nothing. They are driven into it by gross injustices and lack of any alternatives. If someone is bullied long enough he will eventually lash out in violence. Israel does plenty of bullying of Palestinians, even if it's not direct violence. The whole problem is that Israel is strong enough to bully Palestinians without explicit violence.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

Just now, Raze said:

I’m not saying HAMAS is justified, I’m saying if Israel is justified, HAMAS certainly is. 

Israel has not even attempted to really create peace, they have only put greed and nationalism above even there own safety, which is why attacks like this still happen at all , it’s not high moral character to continually provoke and attack a hostile population, and it certainly isn’t making Israeli’s safer.

No, HAMAS is not justified because their actions are senseless and irrational. They don't achieve any goal, in fact, the opposite of their goal. I can't just go on a killing spree because nobody wants to go vegan, contemplate how insane that is.

Israel has attempted to create peace, you are just too biased to recognize this. You don't appreciate true dilemmas.

[PurpleTree]

 

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

No, HAMAS is not justified because their actions are senseless and irrational. They don't achieve any goal, in fact, the opposite of their goal. I can't just go on a killing spree because nobody wants to go vegan, contemplate how insane that is.

Israel has attempted to create peace, you are just too biased to recognize this. You don't appreciate true dilemmas.

1. A movement being strategically correct or not doesn’t necessarily make it morally justified or not 

2. Again, I agree HAMAS isn’t justified, but neither is Israel and HAMA’s behavior is a expected reaction to it

3. Israel and the USA have sabotaged basically every attempt to create peace. Their “attempts of peace” are just pushing for their own self interest at the expense of Palestinians which they will never accept.

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

And how much better would you fare if you were a Palestinian?

Terror is bad, however people are not driven to terror by nothing. They are driven into it by gross injustices and lack of any alternatives.

Of course, every person on this planet is driven by something, including all rapists and murderers that ever lived. This doesn't change that HAMAS is acting contrary to any of their perceived goals, harming the Palestinians more, and therefore being irrational, while the Israeli's genuinely are acting in their interest, even if not perfectly.

What you perceive as gross injustice is self-preservation for someone else. What is more injustice is that individuals have to be tortured and killed so you can feel a little better and have a little more energy during the day. And yet, you point to the Israeli's and claim they are committing atrocities.

They are not as bad as you think, even if it is not fair for the palestinians. The palestinians are valid in the way they feel, there is simply no good solution in this situation, so the injustice will continue, as slavery had to continue for thousands of years for the sake of self-preservation. This is no different.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Colonization doesn't justify the type of terrorism HAMAS is engaging it. First and foremost, you have a moral duty to your own people rather than to bask in self-righteous acts of terror that will only bring more harm to your people. HAMAS isn't doing this so palestinians can prosper, that's not how they operate, they are ideologically driven and funded by states like Iran to be used as pawns.

HAMAS is not the major threat to Israel, the neighbouring nationstates to israel are, and they are, in principle, willing to wipe out the jewish population if the opportunity presents itself.

 

Palestinians don't get randomly slaughtered, there is obviously an active conflict going on. And yes, the Israeli are in power, so of course they will dominate the plaestinians. You are too biased to recognized this, but Israel is actually acting in farely high moral character considering the situation that is presented to them. I don't presume I would fare much better in the situation, and I know for certain that if you were in the situation, it would be hell on earth.

   Again, I and @Raze and other users here are NOT arguing for why HAMAS is justified and right, we're all arguing for why Israel is in the moral wrong for oppressing, mistreating, and forcing Palestinians into smaller and smaller and smaller lands, and why Zionism Israelis that implemented the 2 party state are doing so because they want to preserve their ethnic race and nationalist identity. Word for word, this is exactly like Nazi Germany rhetoric! Why are you falsely claiming we're using colonization to justify HAMAS terrorism?

   If true we have a moral duty for just our own people, then we cannot give commentary and opinion and claim if an outside group or outside situations in the world, that are immoral, immoral? We don't have the right to call some people and some actions immoral? We don't have the right to assert with some corroborative evidence of our claims? We cannot debate and argue back and forth and exchange ideas and reasonings? We cannot objectively see the power dynamic and power differences between Israel and Palestine?

   

[Scholar]

Just now, Raze said:

1. A movement being strategically correct or not doesn’t necessarily make it morally justified or not 

2. Again, I agree HAMAS isn’t justified, but neither is Israel and HAMA’s behavior is a expected reaction to it

3. Israel and the USA have sabotaged basically every attempt to create peace. Their “attempts of peace” are just pushing for their own self interest at the expense of Palestinians which they will never accept.

Of course it does. I am not morally justified to go on a killing spree because people are not vegan, because it would not change anything and make the situation worse. Morality is directly linked to what is rational.

Israel is justified in self-preservation. HAMAS reaction is expected to some degree, however much of it is fueled by outside nationstate actors.

Point 3 is not true, this is delusional and biased.

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Scholar said:

This doesn't change that HAMAS is acting contrary to any of their perceived goals, harming the Palestinians more, and therefore being irrational, while the Israeli's genuinely are acting in their interest, even if not perfectly.

I suggest that that's not due to some moral superiority, but due to their material power differential. Israel has a much stronger position so they bully in a more "civilized" way.

Hamas is rational because their position is so weak that they don't have any other choice. It's not like they can negotiate to stop the Zionist settlement expansion. Right-wing Zionists are hellbent to keep grabbing more land.

Precisely because Israel is in a strong material position the burden is on them to stop grabbing more land so that a peace agreement can be reached. But they refuse to do that. And then they act surprised when Palestinians get violent. This is like poking a hornet's nest with a stick and then acting surprised when the hornets attack.

Israel is free to defend itself from attacks, but the land grabbing needs to stop. If Israel insists on grabbing more land then they are not allowed to cry when attacks happen. You can't steal land and not expect attacks. That's like robbing a bank and then crying when you get shot at. Theft of property is a kind of violence because property must be defended with violence.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   Again, I and @Raze and other users here are NOT arguing for why HAMAS is justified and right, we're all arguing for why Israel is in the moral wrong for oppressing, mistreating, and forcing Palestinians into smaller and smaller and smaller lands, and why Zionism Israelis that implemented the 2 party state are doing so because they want to preserve their ethnic race and nationalist identity. Word for word, this is exactly like Nazi Germany rhetoric! Why are you falsely claiming we're using colonization to justify HAMAS terrorism?

   If true we have a moral duty for just our own people, then we cannot give commentary and opinion and claim if an outside group or outside situations in the world, that are immoral, immoral? We don't have the right to call some people and some actions immoral? We don't have the right to assert with some corroborative evidence of our claims? We cannot debate and argue back and forth and exchange ideas and reasonings? We cannot objectively see the power dynamic and power differences between Israel and Palestine?

   

You have more of a duty to advocate for the end of factory farms than you have for advocating for any type of human suffering that currently exists on this planet. Don't give me this nonsense about morality. You are completely and utterly self-serving, much more so than the Israeli's are.

 

And of course you guys were justifying what HAMAS did, don't move the goal post. I said from the beginning, the palestinians have every right to defend themselves. What constitues rational defense is another question. This is like a lion and a gazelle. Of course the gazelle can kick the lion if it tries to eat it. But the lion is not wrong for trying to survive, even if it is unfair.

This is what you are too biased to see.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Of course it does. I am not morally justified to go on a killing spree because people are not vegan, because it would not change anything and make the situation worse. Morality is directly linked to what is rational.

Israel is justified in self-preservation. HAMAS reaction is expected to some degree, however much of it is fueled by outside nationstate actors.

Point 3 is not true, this is delusional and biased.

   No, point 3 is valid because America has deep neoliberal ideology and American hegemony to push for it's own western values and western democracy onto other countries, so of course it'll have interest in making Israel have it's western democracy. It's valid to claim some level of sabotage, why? Because Palestine has a different political bias and is more resembles older authoritarian structures in the past, similar to Iran and it's religion.

   We're not arguing for points 2 and 1. Again, stop introducing false irrelevant contexts like Veganism and mass genocides because we're talking about Israel's 70 years of oppressing and mistreating the Palestinians. Why are you so stubborn and why are you arguing in deep bad faith? Are you sure you're not a Zionist racist? Only an arguer identified with a group or ideology the arguer grows up from and benefits from will argue vehemently despite how blatantly immoral the Israel treats Palestinians.

[Scholar]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

I suggest that that's not due to some moral superiority, but due to their material power differential. Israeli has a much stronger position so they bully in a less terroristic way.

Hamas is rational because their position is so weak that they don't any other choice. It's not like they can negotiate to stop the Zionist settlement expansion. Those Zionists are hellbent to keep grabbing more land.

This isn't what being rational means. They are not actually achieving their purpose, they in fact achieve the opposite. They will lose more land now, not less. They will get destroyed if Israel plays this right.

By your logic, I as a vegan be rational and go on a killing spree because "That's the only means I have, I have no other choice but to kill you people because you don't want to go vegan!". This would be the case if everyone was hellbent on continuing to consume animal products.

 

There is a point where the moral thing to do is to submit to the greater force of nature. If you do not do so, you will simply cause more harm and suffering. And in this situation, we are talking about forces of nature. Israel has no other choice in this situation.

 

Sure, it is to some degree understandable, but it is still ignorant. And at some point, the greater natural force will have no choice but to extinguish any resistance. That is how human civilization has always, and still does, evolve.

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

No, point 3 is valid because America has deep neoliberal ideology and American hegemony to push for it's own western values and western democracy onto other countries, so of course it'll have interest in making Israel have it's western democracy. It's valid to claim some level of sabotage, why? Because Palestine has a different political bias and is more resembles older authoritarian structures in the past, similar to Iran and it's religion.

   We're not arguing for points 2 and 1. Again, stop introducing false irrelevant contexts like Veganism and mass genocides because we're talking about Israel's 70 years of oppressing and mistreating the Palestinians. Why are you so stubborn and why are you arguing in deep bad faith? Are you sure you're not a Zionist racist? Only an arguer identified with a group or ideology the arguer grows up from and benefits from will argue vehemently despite how blatantly immoral the Israel treats Palestinians.

I will cease this conversation with you because you are not able to engage with the substance of what I am saying.