Is ego a projection?

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

@Yimpa Caring about what?

 

[Moksha]

@Thought Art I'm unclear how a definition can be dismissed as flimsy, when any word can mean anything, and words are only pointers anyway. What I shared earlier is my insight per a specific definition of ego.

It is a definition which is fairly common. You're entitled to define ego however you like, but it is inconsistent with a few spiritual sources. By your definition, it is impossible to be free from the ego while still alive.

Ego is complete identification with the form identity. It is drawn by the conflict of desire and fear, and is dismissive of everything else. It is useful to have some connection to our form identity, but the essence identity is of primary importance.

- Eckhart Tolle

With the relinquishing of all thought and egotism, the enlightened one is liberated through not clinging.

- Majjhima Nikaya 72:15

Sitting alone, sleeping alone, going about alone, vanquish the ego by yourself alone. Abiding joy will be yours whan all selfish desires end.

- Dhammapada 21:305

In the secret cave of the heart, two are
Seated by life's fountain. The separate ego
Drinks of the sweet and bitter stuff,
Liking the sweet, disliking the bitter,
While the supreme Self drinks sweet and bitter
Neither liking this nor disliking that.
The ego gropes in darkness, while the Self
Lives in light.

- Katha 1.3.1

 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, OBEler said:

@Leo Gura a friend of mine took lsd and it visualized him the ego as a giant octopus. So he could understand what the ego really is. Always  reach out,  grasping and holding imaginary concepts

Yup, that's a good way to think of it. An imaginary octopus.

[tadpole]

The "ego" is what you call "myself." This includes your body, your personality, your preferences, your ideas about yourself and the world, etc.

The real you is all that is. It has no agenda and no preferences. It sees the world as it is and does not separate itself from it.

[Thought Art]

@Moksha it is impossible. I’ve read many uses of the word ego. It gets used in many ways. 
 

David Richo, Sheldon Kopp, Vernon Howard, Leo Gura etc… my own experiences and contemplations. 
 

I think the gurus you share are wrong, they have a partial perspective on ego. They themselves have ego, and your clinging to them as what ego is is ego. Ego is bad, it’s essentially survival. 
 

Ego is survival. That’s all. Not bad, not good. 
 

Ego as a concept or concepts can be looked at through many lenses and perspectives.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Thought Art

[tadpole]

9 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Ego is survival.

Survival is a natural process that happens with or without ego. Your body naturally takes care of itself, it doesn't need a concept of "my food" to eat. Animals also engage in survival.

Ego is the concept you have of yourself.

Edited April 13, 2023 by tadpole

[Moksha]

@Thought Art How can a definition be wrong? Instead of getting caught up in words, let's discuss the meaning beyond them (which of course is more words, but it is inescapable).

All that is being pointed to here are the dangers of misidentifying with the transient self, rather than directly realizing the absolute.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

When I think of ego, I think about some character in a book. We can relate to the character, we can empathize with them like they're a "real" human being, but ultimately there isn't any "person" behind the character. The character exists as descriptions and our interpretations of these descriptions. But when we talk about humans, like myself, then we think it's different. People might read this and think that there is some person behind these words. Or we might believe that our thoughts and feelings point to some "real" and "tangible" "person" or "entity" at the bottom of our existence.

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

the matter seems like some very silly imaginary thing that we must dismiss, but it is not. it all starts with the atavistic innate instinctive duality: life/death. this is an irresistible urge. from here everything begins to branch out. social acceptance/rejection, the need for your parents as a source of life, the thousands of subtleties of human interaction are based on the duality of life/death. Whoever thinks that this is easily transcended does not understand anything. the deconstruction work must be total, the understanding must reach the root, and even so, I believe that you never totally get rid 

[Thought Art]

@Moksha The point I’m making is more that the word ego, and how one defines and relates to the word and their unstanding of it is widely varied, nebulous, complex, full of bullshit, and little understood by any particular type of epistemology as they all tend to be biased, partial and incomplete. Though, often they are complimentary when stitched into a larger tapestry.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

37 minutes ago, tadpole said:

Survival is a natural process that happens with or without ego. Your body naturally takes care of itself, it doesn't need a concept of "my food" to eat. Animals also engage in survival.

Ego is the concept you have of yourself.

Ego includes the concept you have for yourself. Which, is also part of your survival. Ego is more than just your self image, but how to relate to the world in terms of your survival needs. 
 

For example, you are loving to your wife, make her breakfast. 
 

bur then while driving to work someone cuts you off so you flip them the bird and curse. 
 

Ego is what gets you to prefer living over dying, eating over not eating, taking care of your life or not. An ego can be healthy or unhealthy, highly developed or not very developed, an ego can operate at higher levels of energy or consciousness or lower ones. An ego can be wise, open and loving. Or foolish, closed and hateful. 
 

Does a selfless person have no ego? Well, maybe in theory. But this person still has preferences. Does a liberated human have no ego? Does an enlightened person have 0% ego? NO! Not one of your spiritual teachers has 0% ego. Why? They are Buddhist, or Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim, or hindu, or are a non-dualist or whatever system or set of practices, insights, realizations, schools, epistemological background etc formed them into the finite little spiritual guru they are. It’s Ego and mind games.
 

I think I could argue that plants have biological ego, as do animals. As do humans. Because, the cellular memory prefers to be one way and not another. To survive in this way, and not that way. These biases to me, are ego. 
 

There is probably even metaphysical and existential ego to. To dream being a human in this finite domain vs some other domain that could be sprung from the endless creativity and potentiality of the infinite universal mind.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Thought Art

[Moksha]

47 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Moksha The point I’m making is more that the word ego, and how one defines and relates to the word and their unstanding of it is widely varied, nebulous, complex, full of bullshit, and little understood by any particular type of epistemology as they all tend to be biased, partial and incomplete. Though, often they are complimentary when stitched into a larger tapestry.

Defining a word is one thing, clinging to the definition is another. Your definition is as valid as anyone's, despite being less consensual.

I'm more interested in discussing the meaning beyond words, rather than words themselves.

[Moksha]

44 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

These biases to me, are ego. 

Now we're getting to meaning. It's true that desires and fears (i.e., biases) are endemic to existence, and become more complex as forms evolve.

However, when the absolute directly realizes itself, it sees these desires and fears for what they are. It no longer misidentifies as them, nor is it controlled by them. It allows the thinnest connecting strand, which is necessary for sustaining the appearance of the form within the dream, but no more than that.

You have to eat in order for the form to survive. You don't have to identify as a human needing to eat, even in the act of eating, nor do you need to fear the apparent threat of not surviving.

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, tadpole said:

The real you is all that is. It has no agenda and no preferences. It sees the world as it is and does not separate itself from it.

The real you can literally walk into a McDonald’s and order some junk food because you is hungry.

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

All that is being pointed to here are the dangers of misidentifying with the transient self, rather than directly realizing the absolute.

I’m starting to suspect that it makes no difference.

[Moksha]

49 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

I’m starting to suspect that it makes no difference.

Why is that? Do you see that lucid dreaming not only reduces suffering, but increases the intensity of the dream?

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Yimpa said:

I’m starting to suspect that it makes no difference.

58 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Why is that? Do you see that lucid dreaming not only reduces suffering, but increases the intensity of the dream?

 

Lucid dreaming probably does that.

What I meant to communicate was that nothing/everything is imagined by Mind. Sure, you can make distinctions. A “transient” self and an “absolute” self are both valid expressions of Mind. 

But, ultimately, MIND cannot “misidentify” as one thing over another.

 

[Moksha]

9 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

But, ultimately, MIND cannot “misidentify” as one thing over another.

If by MIND you are referring to the absolute, it has the capacity to misdirect its attention. Within the dream, it can identify as the form, or realize itself beyond the form.

Whether it realizes itself or not within imagination, ultimately it is beyond imagination.

[Yimpa]

25 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Within the dream, it can identify as the form, or realize itself beyond the form.

Or both.

[Moksha]

3 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Or both.

Not at the same time within the same form. Direct realization dissolves form identification.

[Breakingthewall]

the ego is based on survival but is always relative to others. We do not call ego the impulse to run if you see a lion, but the idea you have of yourself, of your worth, according to social interaction. in fact, the ego could make you not run if the lion comes, or make you do harakiri. it can put the survival of the tribe above your own, or concepts like honor above survival.