I'm Getting Stuck At Self Observation! D:

[Mondsee]

Sooooooooo... I just started doing self observation, its been only 3 times, but anyways! I'm already kind of frustrated and the reason is that I always come to an answer that gets me stuck.

When I ask myself "what am I?" I answer to myself "I am the voice".

The problem is that as soon as I arrive to that idea it is not that I believe I am the voice. Instead "the voice" identifies as an entity within the body that, I'll say... thinks for itself, then it is able to "make sense" out of all questions and answer them in terms of "being the voice that is part of the body".

So "the voice" is speaking for itself and it actually can answer everything. I think this is leading me no where. To give you an example of how it goes, I'll take some of the questions Leo suggests.

Quote

What am I? - I am the voice of this body.

What am I, right now, in my direct experience? - The voice of this body that is being heard by itself.

Who is aware of reality? - The senses of this body.

Who is aware of me / perceiving? (the voice) - The senses of this body.

Who is the owner of the body/mind? - It has no owner.

Who is asking all these questions? - Well, me of course! The voice.

Why do I believe I'm the body? - I don't believe I'm the body, I believe I'm a part of the body, a feature of it, I'm its voice.

Why do I believe I'm the mind - I don't believe I'm the mind, the mind is another part of the body that dictates me, the voice, what to say.

Where do thoughts arise from? - From the mind.

So, do you get how it goes? Sure there are more questions, some of which I haven't focused on,  but as soon as that discourse is lead by the f*cking voice convinced of being simply the voice, I can't get any further. It answers itself, feels satisfied with the answer, and doesn't look any further!!!

I also know I'm just starting, but really, the three times it has been the same, the voice saying it didn't claim to be more than just that, and making sense out of everything from its perspective.

This is not amusing in any way.

[Galyna]

Leo said in his video that you use this principle until it brakes, voice talking to itself, it is absurd, but the more you ask, the less answers you get, exhaust it and see what happens. You should come to the stage where you will really sincerely do not know who you are.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Galyna

[Mondsee]

14 minutes ago, Galyna said:

Leo said in his video that you use this principle until it brakes, voice talking to itself, it is absurd, but the more you ask, the less answers you get, exhaust it and see what happens. You should come to the stage where you will really sincerely do not know who you are.

I guess I'll have to prove that right or wrong using the empirical method...  But thanks!

[Leo Gura]

@Mondsee Good... that's a good start. But you'll need to hammer at it a lot more until your model of what you are starts to look patently absurd.

For example:

• If you are the voice, do you stop existing when the voice is silent?
• If you are the voice, how can a voice see a tree? Can voices see things?
• If you are the voice, who/what is hearing the voice? Aren't you the hearer of the voice?
• How can a voice hear itself?
• If you are the voice, would you be a different you if the voice spoke a different language?
• Do you really believe you're the voice? So if we put a gun to your head, about the pull the trigger, is the thing you'd really be afraid of is that the voice would die? Or something more?
• Why are you the voice and not something else like an ear, or a finger, or a chair? Who said the voice is any more special than anything else?

See, your model of reality makes no sense even with a cursory investigation. It's baloney.

Look deeper. How is perception possible at all? What's is the exact mechanism? Find it in your direct experience. Don't appeal to scientific models, as they are all wrong, mere ideas.

[Galyna]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Mondsee Good... that's a good start. But you'll need to hammer at it a lot more until your beliefs starts to reveal themselves are baloney.

For example:

• If you are the voice, do you stop existing when the voice is silent?
• If you are the voice, how can a voice see a tree? Can voices see?
• If you are the voice, who/what is hearing the voice? Aren't you the hearer of the voice?
• If you are the voice, would you be a different you if the voice spoke a different language?
• Do you really believe you're the voice? So if we put a gun to your head, about the pull the trigger, is the thing you'd really be afraid of is that the voice would die? Or something more?

See, your model of reality makes no sense even with a cursory investigation. It's baloney.

So what to do if I am truly stuck at a point where I do not know who I am, my voice is silent, he does not want to answer me any more, lol  

[Leo Gura]

@Galyna But you're lying! You DO have a firm belief that you know who you are. Which is your whole problem.

If I put a loaded gun to your head, would you say to me, "Go ahead, I don't know who I am anyway"? No! You'd be very sure you're gonna die.

If you ACTUALLY didn't know who you are, that would be a great place to be. You'd be seconds away from enlightenment.

The problem is that your belief is SO firm you cannot see anything past it. You're trying to fill a cup that's already full.

Why do you believe so blindly that that body is you?

It's ridiculous! It makes absolutely no sense! How can you be a body any more than you can be a chair or a tree?

What is perceiving the body?

[Galyna]

Thank you, I will investigate further, talk to you in one year  if you still around. 

[Mondsee]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

• If you are the voice, do you stop existing when the voice is silent?
• If you are the voice, how can a voice see a tree? Can voices see things?
• If you are the voice, who/what is hearing the voice? Aren't you the hearer of the voice?
• How can a voice hear itself?
• If you are the voice, would you be a different you if the voice spoke a different language?
• Do you really believe you're the voice? So if we put a gun to your head, about the pull the trigger, is the thing you'd really be afraid of is that the voice would die? Or something more?
• Why are you the voice and not something else like an ear, or a finger, or a chair? Who said the voice is any more special than anything else?

No @Leo Gura... not sure if you quite understood.

For example, the first question, I actually asked that, or the voice did, or whatever... and you know what it answered to itself? It said "It's like when you run. When the body doesn't run, is it that running doesn't exist? It is simply that the body isn't running, it isn't doing that. Same applies for me, when I'm silent, the body is simply not performing speaking."

Now, moving on to the second question, that I did not ask myself, but "the voice" would answer: "What a stupid question, of course voices don't see, voices speak. The eyes, another part of the body is what is seeing, not me." (Same would apply for ears hearing).

And this voice actually speaks a couple languages, sometimes it speaks to itself in different ones...

Haha and about the last question:

1 hour ago, Mondsee said:

The problem is that as soon as I arrive to that idea it is not that I believe I am the voice. Instead "the voice" identifies as an entity within the body that, I'll say... thinks for itself, then it is able to "make sense" out of all questions and answer them in terms of "being the voice that is part of the body".

Its this extra entity chatting to itself!

I (wait let me stress that...) IIII don't think I'm the voice, I wouldn't be afraid of the voice dying... not only about that at least, but the voice takes over me as "the voice only" to answer everything for itself!! Get it now? This is what is hindering me to look deeper...

[Ananta]

@Mondsee In this case, you may find it more helpful to use Nisargadatta's advice- stay with the "I AM". *Not* I AM this or that, but simply "I AM" which is prior to any additional thought form attaching to it. Don't repeat it fast like a mantra. Just say "I AM" and stay with it as long as possible. This points directly back at you, awareness/consciousness, that's who it's referring to. So, there are no questions at this point. Once you can do this and slow your thinking, then you may be ready for additional inquiry. You'll have to see how it works for you or doesn't work?

[Leo Gura]

@Mondsee Quiet down that monkey mind and notice the voice goes silent and therefore cannot be you.

How insane would you say I am if I told you that my dog is its voice? So when the dog barks, that's really him! I could butcher the dog and tell you that, "It's okay, I didn't really kill him. His voice is just silent. And his body wasn't really the dog because the dog was the voice. And a silent voice is just resting. So really, he's just fine, even though his meat is now in my refrigerator waiting to be cooked for dinner."

[PureExp]

@Mondsee It's easy - just ask , what is aware of the voice. And stay silent.

Your enquiry as it is now is just mental chatter. Enquiry should focus on what you experience after the question is asked.

The answer are never mental.

E.g. Observe a tomato and ask - what color is it. See the color, there is experience of redness.

Later the mind can jump in and utter -"red", just ignore that, see the color again. Be the color.

[Ananta]

I do agree that witnessing the voice and seeing it's unreality is best, BUT if one is convinced they are the voice and cant quite the mind, then the "I AM" practice is helpful This is what Nisargadatta maharaj started with..it was the practice his teacher instructed him to do.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Anna1
Spelling

[Mondsee]

11 hours ago, Anna1 said:

n this case, you may find it more helpful to use Nisargadatta's advice- stay with the "I AM". *Not* I AM this or that, but simply "I AM" which is prior to any additional thought form attaching to it.

I might try this out, I have nothing to loose, I guess... Thanks for the suggestion.

10 hours ago, PureExp said:

It's easy - just ask , what is aware of the voice. And stay silent.

Hmm... too late maybe... I already asked what is aware of the voice, and the voice quickly came with a ridiculously logical answer... really I'm amazed at the amount of explanations it can find to itself.

To that question it said: "The senses of this body are aware of the voice", then I followed up with, "oh yeah? is that so? so please tell me exactly which sense is now perceiving you, since you are not talking out loud..."  and it said "I have the ability to talk out loud or quietly. When I talk quietly, then the mind is the one who listens".

I wonder if after coming up with that creative explanation it'll be able to stay silent when I ask that. But I'll try.

[Mondsee]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How insane would you say I am if I told you that my dog is its voice? So when the dog barks, that's really him! I could butcher the dog and tell you that, "It's okay, I didn't really kill him. His voice is just silent. And his body wasn't really the dog because the dog was the voice. And a silent voice is just resting. So really, he's just fine, even though his meat is now in my refrigerator waiting to be cooked for dinner."

Haha @Leo Gura! I thought you were working towards vegetarianism!

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Quiet down that monkey mind and notice the voice goes silent and therefore cannot be you.

No, really jokes aside, listen... the thing is, the entire dialogue of self observation is something I don't quite identify with what I actually am. It feels as the voice talking to itself in another dimension and thats it, and in that dimension it is able to find explanations to everything. So when I ask "what am I" and I answer "I'm the voice" it is not in the sense of "I, me, myself is a voice" no, it is in the sense of "I, the one who is answering this question is the voice". I hope that is clear in some way.

Anyways, today I came to a new dead end and I can't get out of it. Long story short, now my mind is absolutely positive (maybe even more than before) that it exists because it has experienced itself. If you are interested in how the dialogue went, here it is:

Quote

Ok, so you are the voice, fine. Then tell me, what is aware of the voice? - The senses of this body.

Aha, and what sense is being aware of you right now? - When I talk out loud, the hearing is aware of me, when I talk quietly (which I happen to be able to do), then the mind is aware of me.

Wait, didn't you previously say that the mind was the one dictating to you what to say? - yes it is, it is the sender and the receptor as well, actually, I'm just articulating what the mind thinks, which is its function.

So we could say you are part of the mind - (hesitating) yeah, kind of.

Ok so now that we've said voice and mind are kind of the same, then tell me, are you aware that you believe in and consider truths a ton of things that you don't know for sure? - (defensively) like what?

Like the fact that the Earth is round - I know that for sure! I've actually proven it to myself.

Oh! haha have you? How? - Well, once I travelled by ship from America to Europe.

Aha, and what if that is the flat part of the Earth and from Asia to America there was only a precipice? - No, but I know many have travelled that route by ship too, and they arrived safely.

So you're just believing what they told you blindly - Well... yes, I am

Aha... so just in the way you do that you could have believed blindly in the fact that this body with you in it exists. - No, that I did not believe in blindly. There is a difference. There are things that I admit that I believe blindly in because they seem plausible and well accepted, and indeed could be not true; but there are other things that I believe in that I'm 100% sure that are true because I have experienced them myself, like this body! I can see it, I can feel it, I can hear it.

Then I closed my eyes.

How about now? Does this body still exist? - I can still hear it, and I can still feel it.

So what if some kind of disease attacked this body and it became blind, deaf and it could not feel, then what? Would this body still exist? - Probably it would still get hungry, or get thirsty, breathe and those things, and it'll prove its existence that way.

Ok, so what when really nothing is aware of it, like when you are under anestesia? does it still exist then? - It does, but the mind is not aware of that.

Where is the mind then? - It is there, but it is shut off. It is also not aware of being there.

Ok imagine this scenario: Your senses and your mind are perfectly fit, you can experience yourself, then you get anesthesia, are no longer aware of anything, but as you claim, you're still there, just shut off. Then something goes wrong in the operation and your senses don't work any more, and you re-awaken in this darkness unable to sense anything. Do you still exist then? Now you cannot prove it to yourself. - Well, then, and only then would I start hesitating about the existence of the body. Not so much, because I have a memory and know what I was, but since right now I cannot prove it to myself through senses, only then would I start hesitating it a little.

I couldn't go further than that. From that point on, and it must have been good 10 min, my mind went on saying as long as it can prove to itself that it exists through senses, as it does right now, it'll be super positive that it exists.

Help.

[Space]

@Mondsee Focus on what is occurring in direct experience, right now. This is the only thing that matters because you have to make a distinction between what is clearly within your awareness and what is actually just belief. You think that you exist, so where are 'you' in your experience? If you say, "well...i'm just here somewhere, I must be!", realise what that literally is - it's a belief which is unsupported by any 'evidence' in experience. I've found that there is a lot of very similar beliefs that need to be questioned. You just think that you exist somewhere amongst the body/mind, but it's really just an unquestioned assumption. You might think that you're the thinker of thoughts, but look carefully and see what your experience really is. Is it true that 'you' are creating the thoughts, or is it just another belief? It may be true that you are indeed the thinker of thoughts, but is that true for you, in your experience, right now?? Probably not - the source of your thoughts is unknown. 

The point of this process is not to try to 'work out' the question of What Am I? on an intellectual level, but rather come to an experiential understanding that you don't know the answer. You say that, 'the voice quickly came with a ridiculously logical answer', but this is just you trying to work out the question intellectually. When you ask yourself 'Who is aware of this voice inside my head?', look to your experience, rather than coming up with some intellectual response, which is just another meaningless thought, and ultimately just another belief. Without thinking or saying anything, do you know what is aware of the voice inside your head, or the sensations of the body? 

Hope this helps! 

[Mondsee]

2 hours ago, Space said:

Focus on what is occurring in direct experience, right now. This is the only thing that matters because you have to make a distinction between what is clearly within your awareness and what is actually just belief.

Hmm... Look, if "the voice" i.e. "the mind", start focusing on that, they will find some explanation to themselves. They're freaking professionals at that. For example, "ok, I'll focus on what is occurring in direct experience right now: I see and feel myself sitting on a chair in front of my desk, which I also see and feel. I hear my fingers typing on the keyboard, and I also see them, and I feel them. This all is not a belief, this is very, very clearly within my awareness. This is what is."

2 hours ago, Space said:

You think that you exist, so where are 'you' in your experience? If you say, "well...i'm just here somewhere, I must be!", realise what that literally is - it's a belief which is unsupported by any 'evidence' in experience. I've found that there is a lot of very similar beliefs that need to be questioned. You just think that you exist somewhere amongst the body/mind, but it's really just an unquestioned assumption. You might think that you're the thinker of thoughts, but look carefully and see what your experience really is.

(Voice/mind speaking:) "I think that I exist, yes I do. Where am I? Well... I am sitting on my chair in front of my desk, not here somewhere, here sitting in front of my desk, and it is not a belief, I just proved it through the senses of this body. Me, the voice is only the speaking part of the body, but I am not the entire self. This self is the body+mind+voice. This self, this human being is all of it in its entirety, including me, the voice. It is not that what this self is is simply the thinker of the thoughts (mind+voice). This self is the thinker of the thoughts + the body + the senses."

Now, it could seem that I'm far, far away from any kind of profound realization, and I might very well be, but the thing is that I... the actual me, I do not identify with this discourse. I see it as the voice, who is the voice and not me, talking for the mind, who is the mind and not me. Maybe it is that bold italic "I" that I should start finding explanations for...

2 hours ago, Space said:

It may be true that you are indeed the thinker of thoughts, but is that true for you, in your experience, right now??

So, no! I don't believe I'm the thinker of thoughts!!! That is the f*cking voice/mind not letting me see deeper...

Edit:

P.S. I think it actually helped...

Edited March 3, 2017 by Mondsee

[Leo Gura]

@Mondsee This inquiry process will take hundreds of hours at least. So get comfy and keep at it. Don't waste your time discussing or arguing the matter with other people. This is like a mathematical proof. You gotta sit down by yourself and carefully sort through the nuances until something clicks. The facts are all right there. The only problem is, it's painful to face them. The mind desperately wants a way to distract itself from inquiry. Hence all this back-and-forth.

[Mondsee]

@Leo Gura I, whoever that is, will do my best. Thanks!