The Convergence of Capitalism and Communism

[Devin]

8 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Me neither, nor has there even been a completely Stage Orange society. These are hypothetical ideals which never map perfectly onto reality. I would say that the post-Renaissance European mercantile empires were the nearest embodiment of “pure capitalism”. In the 20th century, we moved away from this towards managerial capitalism, in which the element of pure profit has slowly been substituted for various managerial agendas. This “managerial capitalism” is a precursor to the “communist capitalism” that I am describing!

You’re being very pedantic! I was taking for granted that, given that the subject of this thread is the relationship between capitalism and communism (the latter being an ideology of the 20th century), you would recognise that I was talking about the values of these territories within the 20th century. Whilst there were certainly appeals to community on both sides, it is undeniable that the Anglo-American ideal was the “sovereign individual” and the “self-made man” whilst the Russo-Chinese Communist ideal was the “upholder of the community” and the “worker”. Just look at the art and propaganda of the two regimes.

 

20th century America is your example for Capitalism?  Yeah I think it was relatively more communitarian than now actually, there are just different variables at play now, more availability of desired things like healthcare.

The self made man thing is more prevalent now, back then most people just worked like factory work until they died, fully content on not trying to do something on their own. They usually even worked the same job for the same company their entire life 16-70.

[DrugsBunny]

9 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

By the way, when someone as small-minded as “DrugsBunny” criticises you, it is a good sign that you are onto something!

Struck a nerve I see. Mind telling the class your opinions on the Jews, and the LGBT movement? 

Remember, when someone as bigoted and conspiratorial-minded as @Oeaohoo criticizes you, it's a sign you've evolved beyond concrete scraping knuckle-dragging.

[Sucuk Ekmek]

20 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

A capitalist system is one in which everybody does what they want. The trouble with this is that most people don’t know what they want.

Excuse my ignorance but what is capital?

[Oeaohoo]

What am I doing here?! 

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, axiom said:

Free market dynamics can weed out the greediest.

Lol

[Hardkill]

You said before that: 

On 7/8/2021 at 5:24 AM, Leo Gura said:

You are confusing two things: their work is necessary, but their wealth is not.

If a school teacher can do a good job on $50k/yr, then so can a CEO.

Just because you make necessary contributions to mankind does not mean you are entitled to charge a billion dollars for it.

Here's what you're missing about the psychology of billionaires. If we took away all of Elon Musk's money, he would still do his work. Because money is not what motivates him. These people are workaholics. They will work even if you tax them 100%.

If that's the case, then wouldn't people like them still be motivated to be hard working and productive individuals in a socialistic society? 

If so, then wouldn't that also mean that capitalism isn't really needed to incentivize people to work hard and be as productive as possible as long as people work hard at something they have a passion for?

Edited December 20, 2022 by Hardkill

[A_v_E]

@Hardkill of course it's not.

damn pipe capitalist moloch dream.

if you need a carott to move, do you even call this a life ?

[Devin]

With communism the Musk's would likely not get the abundance of money or resources he has to play with, it would be distributed by bureaucrats and for their desired ventures.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Devin

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

You said before that: 

If that's the case, then wouldn't people like them still be motivated to be hard working and productive individuals in a socialistic society? 

If so, then wouldn't that also mean that capitalism isn't really needed to incentivize people to work hard and be as productive as possible as long as people work hard at something they have a passion for?

Yes, that’s precisely an argument made by a lot of socialists. 

They have a more optimistic view of human nature. They feel humans are more intrinsically motivated then capitalism seems to portray. And they’re not exactly wrong. But they’re not exactly right either.

I do think we can get there at some point. But If we could currently pull off socialism, I suspect we would have already done so. So it’s more of a question of “how long”.

We need more people to move up the spiral before socialism hits mass scale.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Hardkill said:

You said before that: 

If that's the case, then wouldn't people like them still be motivated to be hard working and productive individuals in a socialistic society? 

If so, then wouldn't that also mean that capitalism isn't really needed to incentivize people to work hard and be as productive as possible as long as people work hard at something they have a passion for?

Lots of money isn't needed to motivate people, but also, market forces are at play and people tend to get paid relative to supply and demand.

If one place offers a CEO $50k while another place offers him $5M, the CEO would be a fool to not take the $5M job. And the reason he's offered the $5M job is because he can offer that much value to the company in the position.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Lots of money isn't needed to motivate people, but also, market forces are at play and people tend to get paid relative to supply and demand.

If one place offers a CEO $50k while another place offers him $5M, the CEO would be a fool to not take the $5M job. And the reason he's offered the $5M job is because he can offer that much value to the company in the position.

But at the same time, you believe that no CEO or any other successful individual is never commensurate with that of a billion dollars, correct?

Besides, why does anyone in the world need to have more than approximately $10 million?

Why especially do celebrities in the sports and entertainment industries need to be paid way more than those who provide truly greater essential value to society including teachers, firefighters, military personnel, policemen, scientists, mathematicians, engineers, doctors, other healthcare and STEM professionals, architects, lawyers, etc.?

Edited December 21, 2022 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Hardkill said:

But at the same time, you believe that no CEO or any other successful individual is never commensurate with that of a billion dollars, correct?

In practice, market forces DO allow someone to be commensurate with a billion dollars. It is possible for one man to generate a billion dollars in value. But this rarely happens in practice. Much of it is various kinds of financial manipulations, not pure creative value.

In a conscious society we would not allow people to rank in billions while their coworkers struggle to make a living.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In practice, market forces DO allow someone to be commensurate with a billion dollars. It is possible for one man to generate a billion dollars in value. But this rarely happens in practice. Much of it is various kinds of financial manipulations, not pure creative value.

In a conscious society we would not allow people to rank in billions while their coworkers struggle to make a living.

Right, I see what you mean.

What about celebrities in the sports and entertainment industries? Do you believe they deserve to be paid more than those who provide truly greater essential value to society such as teachers, firefighters, military personnel, policemen, scientists, mathematicians, engineers, doctors, other healthcare and STEM professionals, architects, lawyers, etc.?

Edited December 21, 2022 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

Right, I see what you mean.

What about celebrities in the sports and entertainment industries? Do you believe they deserve to be paid more than those who provide truly greater essential value to society such as teachers, firefighters, military personnel, policemen, scientists, mathematicians, engineers, doctors, other healthcare and STEM professionals, architects, lawyers, etc.?

In a fair society they would not make nearly as much as they do.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Leo Gura