The limits of logic

[Razard86]

At a certain point in my life I learned the limits of logic. Logic is your ability to take in information and make sense of it. Logic relies on memory, and it uses that memory to create a map of meaning. The problem is....if the memory is faulty....the logic will not be able to pick it up. You can only discover faulty memory by having an open mind, and the willingness to test the memory to see if it is true. 

This is why some of the most brilliant logisticians get stuck. They are unwilling to question their memory deep enough to tests its validity. They create biases against certain types of data....and become limited thinkers who are unable to create anything new. The proper way to go through life....is don't absolutely believe anything....question everything....but at the same time....trust your intuition to see you through.

Your biggest barriers to discovering what is true is implicit bias, cognitive dissonance, and ignorance. Intuition can alleviate this, and raising awareness can alleviate this because it can allow you to bypass those limitations...and access divine intelligence....but that is another topic for another time.

The West teaches the memory, logic, model of intelligence. As long as you operate from that model....you will be limited in your ability to learn. Question everything....the same you did as a child. Don't lose that child-like curiosity.

 

 

[Preety_India]

You forgot two things - intuition, emotional logic, psychic senses

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

At a certain point in my life I learned the limits of logic. Logic is your ability to take in information and make sense of it. Logic relies on memory, and it uses that memory to create a map of meaning. The problem is....if the memory is faulty....the logic will not be able to pick it up. You can only discover faulty memory by having an open mind, and the willingness to test the memory to see if it is true.

It also relies on constructs of thought, which rely on ontological primitives (irreducible assumptions about reality), which most people either are unaware about, take as undeniable facts of reality, or are unwilling to question. From this perspective, logic without construct awareness looks just like what dogma looks to logic: "blind leading the blind", "pawns in somebody else's game".

[zurew]

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

trust your intuition to see you through.

Intuition can mislead too. I would even say, that your most deep biases can manifest themselves through your intuitions. Lacking a necessary rational foundation can be really problematic and having an overly rational attitude can be limiting and problematic too, based on the given context.

Both logic and intuition have their own place and limitations.

I assume when you say intuition, you are talking about something that transcends logic. I would agree with you there, however it can sometimes be cloudy and foggy to be able to distinguish between intuition that transcends logic, and 'intuition' that is just a bias you have.

[ZzzleepingBear]

Logic is part of discernment. Logic is meant to be limiting, since logic is used for the purpose to limit common misstakes of all sorts from being  repeated in a vicious endless cycle.

 

[Gesundheit2]

In my experience, most people who think about the limits of logic don't really understand logic. I've been guilty of that myself. A certain level of logical maturity should be required before anyone is to be allowed to question logic.

Not that logic isn't limited, but that if you pick someone randomly and ask them what logic is, its methods, and how it works, chances are they will crumble down very quickly, because they haven't actually studied logic to begin with. They basically chose to spiritually bypass logic, because it's cool to transcend as quickly as possible, isn't it?

[Carl-Richard]

@zurew

I think that intuition is generally less biased than logic, as it involves perceiving something rather than judging something based on preconceived notions (very Jungian of me ?), but it can certainly be inaccurate. The fact that it is inarticulated and feeling-based makes it less corruptible by the scheming part of the ego. Intuition can in a sense only become biased in its adulturated form after it gets processed and interpreted by the rational mind.

[Gesundheit2]

12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

@zurew

I think that intuition is generally less biased than logic, as it involves perceiving something rather than judging something based on preconceived notions (very Jungian of me ?), but it can certainly be inaccurate. The fact that it is inarticulated and feeling-based makes it less corruptible by the scheming part of the ego. Intuition can in reality only become biased in its adulturated form after it gets processed and interpreted by the rational mind.

Logic is context-dependent while intuition is not. Ex: A chess game requires logic, not intuition.

This comparison is logically invalid since you said "I think". Have you said "I feel", it wouldn't have been 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Carl-Richard]

15 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Logic is context-dependent while intuition is not. Ex: A chess game requires logic, not intuition.

It's tricky, because intuition has a processing component which relies on current and past events, and states of your body and mind (perceptual data and even abstract reasoning), which can be regarded as contextual. However, the subjective experience of an intuition doesn't seem to be subject to one's volition (it's like a feeling or perception; it just happens), meanwhile logic and abstract reasoning is felt like something one is doing.

So in a way, intuition relies on preconceived notions just like logic, but in a passive sense rather than an active sense, as it's not directly subservient to the will of the ego as it's happening. You can't unsee an intuition, just like how you can't unsee an apple in front of you (unless you're in some superduper altered state), but you can use logic selectively to serve your own egoic needs (be it unconsciously or not), like picking out a line of argumentation that is the most favorable.

 

33 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

This comparison is logically invalid since you said "I think". Have you said "I feel", it wouldn't have been 

I didn't feel like it ?

[zurew]

@Carl-Richard We might agree , we just may use different definitions for the word intuition.

59 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I think that intuition is generally less biased than logic, as it involves perceiving something rather than judging something based on preconceived notions (very Jungian of me ?), but it can certainly be inaccurate

I don't know if its necessarily less biased, its just not groundable and because of that groundlessness, we don't know what are the biases. On the other hand, you are right that when we are using logic  we are judging based on preconceived notions. However, in the case of logic we can know exactly our limitations, because we can choose our biases and we can be aware that if we use x set of biases or axioms then its going to be limiting in this x way. Because making a certain structure is creating a set of limitations.

So i think our disagreement right now is somewhere around here: I think just because we can't point out the biases that are the ground for some of our intuitions, that does not mean that an intuition contains less or no bias.

59 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The fact that it is inarticulated and feeling-based makes it less corruptible by the scheming part of the ego.

I don't think we can decouple intuition and the ego, unless we are talking about a transcendental state. Also, feelings can be manipulated and artifically created based on a certain set of outer environmental factors. So getting back to my previous post , it is sometimes hard to distinguish between pure intuitions and unconscious feelings ,instincts.

But when we are talking about everyday life, we don't just let intuitions to just be without any touch or sensemaking process involved . We try to use them and we try to make sense of them. Even if we receive a very pure intuition we use it for something. We use it either to make a conceptual understanding of it because we like to ground things or we try to make our decisions based on that intuition. In both cases we filter them through our minds, its very rare when intuitions don't get filtered at all.

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by zurew

[Chrisd]

Is logic limited by it's self-containing nature?

It's limited in its ability to pick up new information?

I'm thinking Sadhguru who says you're either a mystic or a mistake

Fascinating.

[Razard86]

On 5/26/2022 at 2:34 PM, zurew said:

Intuition can mislead too. I would even say, that your most deep biases can manifest themselves through your intuitions. Lacking a necessary rational foundation can be really problematic and having an overly rational attitude can be limiting and problematic too, based on the given context.

Both logic and intuition have their own place and limitations.

I assume when you say intuition, you are talking about something that transcends logic. I would agree with you there, however it can sometimes be cloudy and foggy to be able to distinguish between intuition that transcends logic, and 'intuition' that is just a bias you have.

Intuition cannot mislead you, intuition is literally divine message. Anytime you have a eureka moment....that is intuition. To define intuition, I'll use one of Nikola Tesla's quotes. "“My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength and inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists.”

Now your interpretation of the message could be faulty...but that isn't your intuition that's your logic.

[Razard86]

17 hours ago, Chrisd said:

Is logic limited by it's self-containing nature?

It's limited in its ability to pick up new information?

I'm thinking Sadhguru who says you're either a mystic or a mistake

Fascinating.

You got it!!!

[Razard86]

On 5/26/2022 at 2:59 PM, Gesundheit2 said:

In my experience, most people who think about the limits of logic don't really understand logic. I've been guilty of that myself. A certain level of logical maturity should be required before anyone is to be allowed to question logic.

Not that logic isn't limited, but that if you pick someone randomly and ask them what logic is, its methods, and how it works, chances are they will crumble down very quickly, because they haven't actually studied logic to begin with. They basically chose to spiritually bypass logic, because it's cool to transcend as quickly as possible, isn't it?

You can't access the limits or logic or even truly question it....until you reach its limits. You will know when you reached it....when you notice there is an infinite number of ways to view something. There are infinite points of view, some may have more factual backing but there are so many unknowns, and unknowns on top of unknowns. If you apply your logic with enough focus....you will realize infinity....and realize that logic is limited. I discovered the limit of logic this way through trying to create the perfect philosophy.

Basically what the Youtuber Curt has been trying to do in a sense with his theories of everything. 

[Razard86]

On 5/26/2022 at 10:06 AM, Preety_India said:

You forgot two things - intuition, emotional logic, psychic senses

There is no such thing as purely emotional logic, emotion and logic are separate. Emotional logic is your logic's attempt to translate your emotions. Also I mentioned intuition....and psychic senses....is intuition. Intuition is divine communication. Its a broad category you could get a message from a feeling in your body, a sudden movement, psychic sense as you mentioned, it can be channeling, or whatever you want to add. Intuition is just divine communication. 

[Carl-Richard]

On 26.5.2022 at 8:59 PM, Gesundheit2 said:

In my experience, most people who think about the limits of logic don't really understand logic. I've been guilty of that myself. A certain level of logical maturity should be required before anyone is to be allowed to question logic.

Not that logic isn't limited, but that if you pick someone randomly and ask them what logic is, its methods, and how it works, chances are they will crumble down very quickly, because they haven't actually studied logic to begin with. They basically chose to spiritually bypass logic, because it's cool to transcend as quickly as possible, isn't it?

I literally had this exact thought some days ago. I visualized it as a continuum from something like naive realism to naive skepticism. People who've just recently discovered spirituality, or did so very young, often jump all the way out to the naive skepticism side of "the mind is all illusion, you can't know anything, it must all be thrown out", and maybe later they will re-integrate some aspects of the earlier rationality more in the center of the continuum. The asleep sheeple are of course stuck at the naive realism side , but general construct awareness (irrespective of mysticism) can also move you out to the center. I think somebody like Bernardo Kastrup is a good example of doing the gradual path of construct awareness (no sudden jumps), which eventually ended up in mystical territory.

[Carl-Richard]

22 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Intuition is just divine communication. 

or feeling into the depths of your being, which includes (but is not limited to) "current and past events, and states of your body and mind (perceptual data and even abstract reasoning)". It's the 6th sense, but it's not separate from the other senses. It's a meta-sense, and it works best when you're aligned with your higher self. A related phenomena is the voice of conscience.

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

Further more, if you tried to understand everything through the lenses of logic, then how would you verify the validity of said logic? Would you use logic to do that? That's like believing a snake oil salesman because he told you that he wouldn't scam you.

And I'm not even talking about the cognitive biases and limits that amplify this problem even further.

Edited May 28, 2022 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

or feeling into the depths of your being, which includes (but is not limited to) "current and past events, and states of your body and mind (perceptual data and even abstract reasoning)". It's the 6th sense, but it's not separate from the other senses. It's a meta-sense, and it works best when you're aligned with your higher self. A related phenomena is the voice of conscience.

There you go complicating it again...that is what your logic does it attempts to complicate things...by breaking things down into more and more parts. Intuition is plainly divine communication. When I took shrooms I SAW what intuition was. Again refer back to my Nikola Tesla quote. It is just communication from the divine. At high enough consciousness it is constant. Your intuition is always flowing...but you can only receive it if you are at the right level of awareness. 

[Razard86]

The responses....of everyone in this thread is basically making my point...the limits of logic. Notice how varied everyone's responses is? Notice how everyone is bringing their own perspective, based on their own interpretations? This is exactly what I am talking about. There are an infinite number of ways to describe, interpret, or conceptualize something....if you are not careful...you will just conceptualize into infinity. This is why its better to just simplify something. I mean sure you could break it into more and more parts if you want for fun, but notice you won't get any closer to any real profound truth, all you will have is just another viewpoint, or perspective to look at it. There is nothing wrong with that....but its just another way of viewing something. 

You could do this forever if you wanted. Its why I realized...just get the general gist of something and move on. Now l'm not telling you what to do....but notice you will never find the end to whatever you pontificate on.