Psychedelics and Mystical Experiences - Swami Sarvapriyananda

[Shambhu]

 

[Gili Trawangan]

Thanks for the share.

It's worth watching the rest of the video as well.

[Salvijus]

Wow, those are real solid arguments right there by swami.

I might aswell post this in here ?

 

[BipolarGrowth]

I love swami sarvapriyananda, but his opinion on psychedelics is ignorant in the same way that a materialist’s view on spirituality is ignorant due to lack of direct experience. You can read theories then encompass them in your own worldview all you want. It won’t give you much knowledge of the thing itself. It mainly just reinforces bias which is essentially the path to plateauing insight. If you don’t have experience with the thing itself, you can’t really see the full picture. 

From my experience, the best action is to combine the methods if you feel drawn to psychedelics. Do all of the typical serious spiritual practice as well as psychs. If you don’t feel drawn to psychedelics, don’t do them. If you don’t like how they affect your life, stop. 

[Shambhu]

3 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I love swami sarvapriyananda, but his opinion on psychedelics is ignorant in the same way that a materialist’s view on spirituality is ignorant due to lack of direct experience. You can read theories then encompass them in your own worldview all you want. It won’t give you much knowledge of the thing itself. It mainly just reinforces bias which is essentially the path to plateauing insight. If you don’t have experience with the thing itself, you can’t really see the full picture. 

From my experience, the best action is to combine the methods if you feel drawn to psychedelics. Do all of the typical serious spiritual practice as well as psychs. If you don’t feel drawn to psychedelics, don’t do them. If you don’t like how they affect your life, stop. 

As the swami has said, according to Vedanta, every experience, regardless of how profound you may feel it to be, is always the known and not the knower.  If you realizer the knower, then no privileged experience is necessary, and no "direct knowledge" of psychedelics are required.  Every experience is equally the experience of Consciousness.

From the perspective of Yoga sadhana, psychedelics could produce siddhis or insights, but they do not prepare the mind to live with them.  Also, they could be detrimental to the psyche in some instances.  Yoga practice, though long and arduous, is the preferred method for purifying the body and mind and bringing it to a place where the experience of absolute truth can be obtained and embodied.  

None of this takes away from what psychedelics are capable of, but it does point toward their limitations.  If you wish to use them, by all means, you are free as a bird.  However, there is at least 5,000 years of research into every possible method of realization to be found in India, so I would recommend considering what other spiritual pioneers that have come before you have discovered.  These were not people who had a casual interest in this subject, but those who committed their whole lives to the pursuit.

[SgtPepper]

But @Shambhu

Why would you listen to a yogi about psychedelics? They don't know nothing about them. They are not trained on it and they have no experiences with it. A better teacher would be an African or South American Shaman.

This guy would be better off being honest and saying, I don't know anything about them and I am a Yogi, so I follow these rules. 

If anything this was more a commentary on US' culture and New Age.

His statements contradict himself too. In one breath, he describes them as temporary experiences and then we go back to normal and in another breath, he says they are dangerous because they can change your personality. Oh, but it won't change you from a sinner to a saint! Well, which is it? 

Or even this idea of chasing an 'experience', being addictive, or just being like a great big ride thats WOWOW.

Only someone with little to no experience could say this.

For the majority of the people, psychedelics are challenging. There's nothing addictive about them and sometimes they are not fun. 

The average Yogi, Christian, Muslim could never admit this because they don't actually know what they are talking about. 

Some of you might feel like Leo talks about psychedelics too much, but when I watch this, I am reminded how much ignorance and stigma surrounds psychedelics. 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by SgtPepper

[Shambhu]

@SgtPepper I understand the argument "that he does not have experience with psychedelics," but do you understand the argument from Vedanta (and this swami belongs to a Vedantan order) that all experience is equally capable of revealing the truth when examined with sound logic?  If your goal is a particular experience, then perhaps psychedelics is the appropriate tool, but if you want to realize the One that experience appears to, then no particular experience is necessary.  This is the Vedanta perspective.

The Yoga darshan approaches realization in a slightly different manner, which the swami touches upon.  The Yoga tradition is quite vast, and includes many different schools with varying methods, which not only include the commonly known ashtanga process, but the trantric tradition can include such things as non-vegetarian foods, sex, and intoxicants (including psychedelics).  Here the swami only conveys the wisdom that comes from those who do have experience with such substances, along with other techniques. 

[SgtPepper]

6 minutes ago, Shambhu said:

@SgtPepper I understand the argument "that he does not have experience with psychedelics," but do you understand the argument from Vedanta (and this swami belongs to a Vedantan order) that all experience is equally capable of revealing the truth when examined with sound logic? 

I agree with that! It just appears to me that traditional religious folks, view psychedelics as less valid when it is equally as valid in my view and in other traditions as mentioned by the interviewee like cultures who used Soma & Kykeon. 

I wish traditional followers would be more openminded about psychedelics! but it's alright. 

[Jodistrict]

One of Swami’s arguments is that psychedelics just give you a one-time experience which vanishes and they don’t change you or make you a better person.   He is correct because he is just observing how they are flippantly used in most Western countries.  But I don’t think he has looked into Shamanism as it is still being practiced by indigenous groups.   For me, I look up to my Shaman as an example of someone who has become humble and wise through the use of plant medicines.  In Shamanism, they are medicines and not drugs and only used as an aid to the process of awakening.  

Edited October 27, 2021 by Jodistrict

[Shambhu]

@SgtPepper @Jodistrict Swami Sarvapriyananda is correct from his perspective, and his points are valid.  However, this does not mean that only Vedanta or Yoga are the only legitimate paths to realization.  There are yogis in India that are literally stoned all the time.  In their tradition cannabis is used heavily as an aid to meditation.  The Vedas refer to "soma," which many believe to be a psychedelic; although; the evidence is inconclusive.  It's possible, but there may be other esoteric explanations.  Many yogic scriptures also refer to "soma" or "nectar," as well as the use of herbs, but "soma" or "nectar" in these texts may be referring to the result of an internal process that produces a similar response as psychedelics.  I actually subscribe to the later.

As far as experiences being temporary, this is true.  They may (or may not) change you, but they do not change You.  The point is to discover what does not come and go and to identify with that.

[Ry4n]

To put it simply, peak experiences are useful towards realising that which transcends all experiences. It is only the excessive attachment to those peaks that causes problems. Seeing the truth of consciousness in all states is the ultimate goal for many including myself, and sober awakenings have massive value for that integration that do seem superior to psychedelics in that regard. With that said though I probably would never have sober awakenings without psychedelics, and for many new to the path psychedelics are simply indispensable there is just no denying that.

[BipolarGrowth]

On 10/27/2021 at 9:44 AM, Shambhu said:

As the swami has said, according to Vedanta, every experience, regardless of how profound you may feel it to be, is always the known and not the knower.  If you realizer the knower, then no privileged experience is necessary, and no "direct knowledge" of psychedelics are required.  Every experience is equally the experience of Consciousness.

From the perspective of Yoga sadhana, psychedelics could produce siddhis or insights, but they do not prepare the mind to live with them.  Also, they could be detrimental to the psyche in some instances.  Yoga practice, though long and arduous, is the preferred method for purifying the body and mind and bringing it to a place where the experience of absolute truth can be obtained and embodied.  

None of this takes away from what psychedelics are capable of, but it does point toward their limitations.  If you wish to use them, by all means, you are free as a bird.  However, there is at least 5,000 years of research into every possible method of realization to be found in India, so I would recommend considering what other spiritual pioneers that have come before you have discovered.  These were not people who had a casual interest in this subject, but those who committed their whole lives to the pursuit.

5-MeO-DMT among a host of new tools aren’t even really deeply understood by almost anyone even in the modern world who have used and researched them extensively. They have not existed in human knowledge for long enough for people other than the experts of the experts in that to truly see the potential. There was no way to access this in the 5,000 years of research you’re talking about. Simply putting it off as more activity in Consciousness is a bit ludicrous IMO. That’s selling the whole thing way too short. There are many more important facets of understanding awakening than just saying it’s all the knower Consciousness. If you don’t see that, look into Buddhism some more to chop that notion up. I’d be happy to discuss it with you directly. As I said, I love this Swami and this whole 5,000 year tradition which have been very transformative to my journey, but to treat it as some ultimate and all inclusive answer is like a horse intentionally putting blinders on that cover 50% of its field of vision. 
 

I have no issue with him speaking from the perspective of Vedanta. He just seemed to take it further than that or at least had a tone as if he was doing so IMO. If a materialist scientist says psychedelics are just chemical interactions in the brain and nothing special, in a sense they’re right from their worldview/tradition/practice. This doesn’t mean they have a holistic understanding though whatsoever. 

[Shambhu]

19 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

There was no way to access this in the 5,000 years of research you’re talking about.

Psychedelics as a class are not new and have been tested in the spiritual lab extensively, but granted, a particular chemical might be new.  Regardless, does this new substance provide a radically new experience that is unknown to mankind?  Does it provide a new insight that thus far has been unknown?  If not, then the content of the experience has probably already been examined from the standpoint of Vedanta, even if the catalyst for the experience is different.

19 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Simply putting it off as more activity in Consciousness is a bit ludicrous IMO. That’s selling the whole thing way too short.

Of course all experience is within Consciousness, and is dependent upon Consciousness.  Since the conclusion of Vedanta is that all is infinite Consciousness, it does not require any specific experience to realize this truth.  Vedanta does recognize that some experiences may be more instructive, or some experiences may better prepare the mind for grasping the truth.  Samadhi is such an experience; perhaps psychedelics are another, but Vedanta does not make them a necessity.  

19 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

There are many more important facets of understanding awakening than just saying it’s all the knower Consciousness. If you don’t see that, look into Buddhism some more to chop that notion up.

Pure Consciousness is not a facet; it is the absolute truth, which by definition is all there can be.  I have studied Dzogchen and Mahamudra, which are considered the pinnacle of Buddhism in the Tibetan tradition, under a few lamas, and they did not "chop that notion up," only reinforced it.  The realization of the highest yanas is that the true nature of mind is radiant, spacious awareness (i.e. Consciousness).

Perhaps psychedelics are a samadhi pill; it's possible.  If so, I would have to wonder if something isn't lost by not passing through the process proceeding samadhi.  I would also be concerned about the long term use, since as you have stated, some of these chemicals are rather new for human use.  Maybe it will turn out that psychedelic use is the quickest, surest path to enlightenment; time will likely tell.  Ultimately it's your choice; you're a free bird...do as you like.

[Nahm]

On 10/27/2021 at 9:44 AM, Shambhu said:

As the swami has said, according to Vedanta, every experience, regardless of how profound you may feel it to be, is always the known and not the knower.  If you realizer the knower, then no privileged experience is necessary, and no "direct knowledge" of psychedelics are required.  Every experience is equally the experience of Consciousness.

From the perspective of Yoga sadhana, psychedelics could produce siddhis or insights, but they do not prepare the mind to live with them.  Also, they could be detrimental to the psyche in some instances.  Yoga practice, though long and arduous, is the preferred method for purifying the body and mind and bringing it to a place where the experience of absolute truth can be obtained and embodied.  

None of this takes away from what psychedelics are capable of, but it does point toward their limitations.  If you wish to use them, by all means, you are free as a bird.  However, there is at least 5,000 years of research into every possible method of realization to be found in India, so I would recommend considering what other spiritual pioneers that have come before you have discovered.  These were not people who had a casual interest in this subject, but those who committed their whole lives to the pursuit.

These are perfectly aligned words. ? ? What a joy. 

I’d add, if it’s from psychedelics, by definition it is not awakening or enlightenment. But like all things, thought makes it so, and any teachings therein, are from the separate self, or, thought attachment.  

[BipolarGrowth]

10 hours ago, Shambhu said:

Psychedelics as a class are not new and have been tested in the spiritual lab extensively, but granted, a particular chemical might be new.  Regardless, does this new substance provide a radically new experience that is unknown to mankind?  Does it provide a new insight that thus far has been unknown?  If not, then the content of the experience has probably already been examined from the standpoint of Vedanta, even if the catalyst for the experience is different.

Of course all experience is within Consciousness, and is dependent upon Consciousness.  Since the conclusion of Vedanta is that all is infinite Consciousness, it does not require any specific experience to realize this truth.  Vedanta does recognize that some experiences may be more instructive, or some experiences may better prepare the mind for grasping the truth.  Samadhi is such an experience; perhaps psychedelics are another, but Vedanta does not make them a necessity.  

Pure Consciousness is not a facet; it is the absolute truth, which by definition is all there can be.  I have studied Dzogchen and Mahamudra, which are considered the pinnacle of Buddhism in the Tibetan tradition, under a few lamas, and they did not "chop that notion up," only reinforced it.  The realization of the highest yanas is that the true nature of mind is radiant, spacious awareness (i.e. Consciousness).

Perhaps psychedelics are a samadhi pill; it's possible.  If so, I would have to wonder if something isn't lost by not passing through the process proceeding samadhi.  I would also be concerned about the long term use, since as you have stated, some of these chemicals are rather new for human use.  Maybe it will turn out that psychedelic use is the quickest, surest path to enlightenment; time will likely tell.  Ultimately it's your choice; you're a free bird...do as you like.

Psychedelics alone will probably struggle to get people much progress. It can be a catalyst that works really well when combined with other approaches in my experience. Vedanta vs. psychedelics will probably help far less people than Vedanta + psychedelics. 
 

As far as Pure Consciousness goes, we probably won’t get far in a communication unless it went beyond just text back and forth on a forum. Too much discussion of subtleties, definition, etc. would be involved. It sounds like a Theravada vs. Tibetan issue which obviously would be quite dense to go through if that is the case. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by BipolarGrowth