I didn't kiss on the second date

[StarStruck]

When I read this thread back I can see the absurdity of it. I talked with a friend about it and it feels like I'm in a different paradigm right now. 

[StarStruck]

3 hours ago, Logan said:

You're lacking self love. You can't love another until you love yourself. Watch the language you use with yourself.^^^^ Start seeing yourself as the hero in the journey of life. If you feel like garbage, it will show and people will treat you like it. If you have self respect, then people will respect you. You set the standard for how others treat you. So treat yourself with kindness, compassion, and keep working at it. 

I'm really ashamed to share myself with others because of my many screw-ups in life and I tend to be naive, child like and inexperienced in life while I'm a guy in my prime. A lot of people appreciate my courage though. A person with my traumatic background aren't met to be successful in social life.

[Shin]

5 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

I'm really ashamed to share myself with others because of my many screw-ups in life and I tend to be naive, child like and inexperienced in life while I'm a guy in my prime. A lot of people appreciate my courage though. A person with my traumatic background aren't met to be successful in social life.

Lots of people are in your case, there is nothing to be ashamed of.

You're bound to be as socially successful as you wish, it may just require way more work upfront from you to cover the basics, but if you a growth mindset you can be as good as you want in any domain of life.

I'm proud of you to be so honest and vulnerable and genuinely wanting to get better ?

[StarStruck]

Leo's advice about 3 compliments and 1 is a secret really worked well. She is all over me trying to get an answer. I think it is certain that I can get a third date for next week. 

She was chasing me in the beginning. Then I was chasing her. It is her turn again. 

I'm really making progress but I'm not really happy. I have this fear of life that Alexander Lowen talks about. I rather go back being an incel and live in an emotional vacuum. 

Yesterday I met up with my pickup friend. He wants to do pickup together. I really feel like a fish out of water. I'm getting the things I want namely girls and friends but I was naive about what it entailed. 

[MatteO22]

2 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Leo's advice about 3 compliments and 1 is a secret really worked well. She is all over me trying to get an answer. I think it is certain that I can get a third date for next week. 

She was chasing me in the beginning. Then I was chasing her. It is her turn again. 

Congratulations,way to go !! Remember it’s about who you become in the process of living out your journey, rather than about getting certain outcomes and results. I really liked the thing with compliments too! It’s nice !  

[StarStruck]

Little update about this girl:

So last week she took contact up with me te reschedule our third date. She canceled hours before our date because she was sick. 

After that I took the initiative this time and rescheduled to last Tuesday. She had a job interview and had to cancel. She canceled again few hours before our date. It is kind of strange but she works in restaurant sector and such ad hoc job interviews are possible. 

So I told her to meet me next week. She told me she is going to her parents. That was really the last drop. I really thought she liked me and I liked her but it is so scary how girls just can change their mind in the last moment and just drop you like a hat like you never existed. 

Our dates were the best. The second date was our last and she bad clear feelings for me but I screwed up by being too nice, not taking initiative to kiss and fuck her and not showing enough spine I guess. 

This girl is just another saga in my dating career that causes me a lot of pain and suffering. Yesterday I was just paralyzed and shell shocked how she went from very receptive girl through texts to almost radio silence.

Based on my experience I lost all respect for girls. Apparently being yourself doesn't work if you are nice but I can't help it. That is just how I'm. But these experiences do change me. Girls are forcing me to transform... by losing my innocence, becoming antifragile. 

There is even a feeling inside me that wants to become manipulate and hurt women the same way they hurt me. I perhaps even go that route for a couple of months to live my heart out. Unload my system and transform energetically; having a better balance between nice guy and being a douche. This niceness is killing me. 

[mivafofa]

Just for future notes when you get with another woman,

1 hour ago, StarStruck said:

After that I took the initiative this time and rescheduled to last Tuesday.

^ I think right there was your mistake.  If she choked on the last date, you probably would've been better off just chilling out from then on. As in, you have to carry the laid back attitude of 'alright well if you wanna have a 3rd date with me, you come to me. (And not me to you).'

So instead of initiating the next date, you let her initiate it. And be resolved and ready to just walk away if she doesn't.  After all she's the one who sorta has to make it up to you from choking last date - and you have to show that you are a valuable man, which means 'she doesn't re-initiate? Too bad for her, I'm looking elsewhere.'  Which also mean you won't kiss her feet by going out of your way reaching out to her each time she turns you down.  You coming back with the next date each time she cancels gives off a clingy, needy almost desperate vibe. Just chill, and let her come to you.  Set a new date with another woman to get your mind off her even.

She didn't turn you down cuz you were nice. She turned you down cuz you were being needy and desperate. So please take responsibility of your own feelings and actions and stop blaming women with the plan of hurting them. This incel mindset won't serve you. 

[Gili Trawangan]

4 minutes ago, mivafofa said:

Just for future notes when you get with another woman,

^ I think right there was your mistake.  If she choked on the last date, you probably would've been better off just chilling out from then on. As in, you have to carry the laid back attitude of 'alright well if you wanna have a 3rd date with me, you come to me. (And not me to you).'

So instead of initiating the next date, you let her initiate it. And be resolved and ready to just walk away if she doesn't.  After all she's the one who sorta has to make it up to you from choking last date - and you have to show that you are a valuable man, which means 'she doesn't re-initiate? Too bad for her, I'm looking elsewhere.'  Which also mean you won't kiss her feet by going out of your way reaching out to her each time she turns you down.  You coming back with the next date each time she cancels gives off a clingy, needy almost desperate vibe. Just chill, and let her come to you.  Set a new date with another woman to get your mind off her even.

She didn't turn you down cuz you were nice. She turned you down cuz you were being needy and desperate. So please take responsibility of your own feelings and actions and stop blaming women with the plan of hurting them. This incel mindset won't serve you. 

Spot on.

[StarStruck]

1 hour ago, mivafofa said:

Just for future notes when you get with another woman,

^ I think right there was your mistake.  If she choked on the last date, you probably would've been better off just chilling out from then on. As in, you have to carry the laid back attitude of 'alright well if you wanna have a 3rd date with me, you come to me. (And not me to you).'

So instead of initiating the next date, you let her initiate it. And be resolved and ready to just walk away if she doesn't.  After all she's the one who sorta has to make it up to you from choking last date - and you have to show that you are a valuable man, which means 'she doesn't re-initiate? Too bad for her, I'm looking elsewhere.'  Which also mean you won't kiss her feet by going out of your way reaching out to her each time she turns you down.  You coming back with the next date each time she cancels gives off a clingy, needy almost desperate vibe. Just chill, and let her come to you.  Set a new date with another woman to get your mind off her even.

She didn't turn you down cuz you were nice. She turned you down cuz you were being needy and desperate. So please take responsibility of your own feelings and actions and stop blaming women with the plan of hurting them. This incel mindset won't serve you. 

My therapist told me to follow my feelings more. I think I did act a little bit clingy but what asking her out clingy considering this? She asking me two times how I was doing and asking me out, gave her enough credit for me to take the iniative. 

That is what I was thinking and what my mindset was at that point of decision making. I really like her so is it weird that I want to see her at least once a week? She wants to see me too otherwise she wouldn't ask how I was doing two times in a row and ask me out. 

I'm not calculating my every move and perhaps that was my mistake. I was just myself. Apparently girls don't like authentic guys. They like manipulation. That is what they will get. 

 

[mivafofa]

14 hours ago, StarStruck said:

She asking me two times how I was doing and asking me out, gave her enough credit for me to take the iniative. 

You have to consider everything on the table, including the fact she choked on you few hours before the date. That alone should've removed her credits for you to take futher initiatives. Did you not take notes that when she was the one asking you out, she was consequently in the position of chasing you and actively pursuing you? Where did you suddenly get the idea that switching role there was somehow gonna work lol?  Here's the revelation: your neediness guided you.

Women can sense early on if a guy doesn't have his shit together. If subconsciously you don't believe you're a valuable man, you're also gonna subconsciously project this vibe via texts and behaviors. Why would she screw with a guy like that?

17 hours ago, StarStruck said:

There is even a feeling inside me that wants to become manipulate and hurt women the same way they hurt me.

14 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Apparently girls don't like authentic guys. They like manipulation. That is what they will get. 

If that's your take and attitude on the matter after getting rejected, then no wonder she dropped you. I mean geez this one date is enough to put you in disarray, push you off your center and emotional stability.  Now imagine she would accept a relationship with you - at any difficulty, you'd probably push all the blame onto her like you're doing now and take no accountability and responsibility. Obviously she sensed it early on from you, called it off and she did well to do so. I know it's painful. But you need to do some serious work on yourself. You have too much self-deceptions to unravel. As such:

1 - You're not acting out of love because you really like her. She was the only woman you went on 2 dates in a row so she's the only woman by default. You acted out of neediness and scarcity. Dont think for a second the women can't sense it.

2 - You think you're being "authentic" and nice when really you're being authentically needy. Recognize the difference. You want to present yourself as a valuable man. That also means you have to do the work to be valuable.  Don't act valuable, be valuable. Don't act detached - be detached (by exposing yourself to other women and dates; be busy pursuing your LP).

3 - You think she wants to see you too, because she said 'how are you?' and asked you out twice, when in fact this is just projection from you. She's not interested to see you. (acknowledge she choked thrice on you). Her interest was purely to get to know you better, see how grounded you are as a man and explore your matching potential. At any signs of neediness or desperation by text alone is enough to send you home. That's how she keeps herself safe from men like you who'd wanna hurt her when they're hurt and frustrated from not getting their desired outcome. 

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Yknow I'm not your therapist I don't know where s/he's getting at - maybe s/he meant to follow your feelings in specific aspects of your life, and now you're using this as an excuse to justify being clingy in relationships. Imo it'd be ill-advised to follow your "feelings" right here, as they are clouded with neediness.  What's more, your current feelings are tainted by pain cooped with self-deceptions. You even have feelings of revenge from self-inflicted pain. Can you really trust your feelings then? Knowing any answer you come up might just be another excuse to stay in homeostasis. 

[StarStruck]

6 hours ago, mivafofa said:

You have to consider everything on the table, including the fact she choked on you few hours before the date. That alone should've removed her credits for you to take futher initiatives. Did you not take notes that when she was the one asking you out, she was consequently in the position of chasing you and actively pursuing you? Where did you suddenly get the idea that switching role there was somehow gonna work lol?  Here's the revelation: your neediness guided you.

The things you say are painful but I think you are right. I think I was doing a good job with holding my self worth until she cancelled and I started chasing her. I probably messed it up for good. For the record, she told me to come to her place (because it was raining) or she could come to my place. I told her she could come to my place. Probably she didn't want to fuck me after having showed some weakness.

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Women can sense early on if a guy doesn't have his shit together. If subconsciously you don't believe you're a valuable man, you're also gonna subconsciously project this vibe via texts and behaviors. Why would she screw with a guy like that?

If that's your take and attitude on the matter after getting rejected, then no wonder she dropped you. I mean geez this one date is enough to put you in disarray, push you off your center and emotional stability.  Now imagine she would accept a relationship with you - at any difficulty, you'd probably push all the blame onto her like you're doing now and take no accountability and responsibility. Obviously she sensed it early on from you, called it off and she did well to do so.

I know it's painful. But you need to do some serious work on yourself. You have too much self-deceptions to unravel. As such:
 

Well, I was and I'm hurt so I understand why I got a little toxic here. On long term being toxic doesn't work but that is just how I feel right now. I'm not a dumb guy; I know that I have to work on myself.

For me there were were two options: acting like I'm the prize thus non-needy or just being myself.
I'm not good actor so I just decided to be myself and I got needy I guess. Also me tolerating her flaking on me two times should have made me angry and I should have confronted her and demand respect. On top of that she couldn't meet next week because she decided to visit her parents. The bottom line is that she doesn't really have respect for me because I don't have respect for myself.

Looking back at it... Perhaps I should have held the neediness in until I fucked her once but also.. if I didn't allow myself to be myself, that neediness wouldn't come to the surface, and I couldn't signal it and work on it.

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1 - You're not acting out of love because you really like her. She was the only woman you went on 2 dates in a row so she's the only woman by default. You acted out of neediness and scarcity. Dont think for a second the women can't sense it.

 

I held of meeting with other girls because I really liked her. Recently I got two other numbers so I will try my luck with them.

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2 - You think you're being "authentic" and nice when really you're being authentically needy. Recognize the difference. You want to present yourself as a valuable man. That also means you have to do the work to be valuable.  Don't act valuable, be valuable. Don't act detached - be detached (by exposing yourself to other women and dates; be busy pursuing your LP).

 

That is a very good point. It is amazing how my brain distorts reality.

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3 - You think she wants to see you too, because she said 'how are you?' and asked you out twice, when in fact this is just projection from you. She's not interested to see you. (acknowledge she choked thrice on you). Her interest was purely to get to know you better, see how grounded you are as a man and explore your matching potential. At any signs of neediness or desperation by text alone is enough to send you home. That's how she keeps herself safe from men like you who'd wanna hurt her when they're hurt and frustrated from not getting their desired outcome.

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps she really was sick last week and she had to cancel. And perhaps she really did have a job interview last Tuesday and had to cancel. And perhaps next week she is really going to her parents. But what you said is just as plausible although I think you are making couple of assumptions here. At this moment I caught myself making excuses for her like "she is shy and I need to give her time" but truth be told if she really liked me she would come one day earlier from her parents and meet me.

But in general I think you made good points. My problem is low self-worth, chasing this girl to feel worthy, and having low self-image and self-esteem. Sad part is that I have been working on this with my therapist and I guess I didn't make a lot of progress. I guess I need to read some good books on this topic because what I'm doing right now doesn't work. My neediness works like an anti-magnet towards girls.

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Yknow I'm not your therapist I don't know where s/he's getting at - maybe s/he meant to follow your feelings in specific aspects of your life, and now you're using this as an excuse to justify being clingy in relationships. Imo it'd be ill-advised to follow your "feelings" right here, as they are clouded with neediness.  What's more, your current feelings are tainted by pain cooped with self-deceptions. You even have feelings of revenge from self-inflicted pain. Can you really trust your feelings then? Knowing any answer you come up might just be another excuse to stay in homeostasis. 

My self-deceptions are really my pain point and source of suffering I guess. You are a life saver. Thanks.

Edited July 3, 2021 by StarStruck

[mivafofa]

Ok I guess you're pretty capable of self-awareness and I have no worries you will find a way to work it through then.. I just wanna let you know you're not alone... even as a female, I've also been needy at some point in my life. It always comes with a lack of self-worth and self-esteem as you pointed out.  I had the luxury of being frequently pursued from just being female but this only added to my frustration when I couldn't feel attracted to anyone, and eventually it led to a scarcity mindset. I was in scarcity of people I find attractive - after much pain in the past, I became pickier and was resolved to only date someone I felt attracted to. And that didn't happen for nearly 2 years before I finally found someone I was into.  I just wanted to see him again... I probably wanted so desperately to be loved back as well (but how could he when I didn't even love myself either right?).  I was desperate, needy and too forgiving.  My sense of self-worth thrown out the window. Red flags turned white. Naturally I blew it.  And the pain is brutal... so brutal, as you know.  (I think I was depressed too, and probably resigned myself to escape depression by using relationship as a clutch.)

But in the end of the day, I learned these kinds of pain were really a blessing in disguise. Overcoming our most painful moments in life is where real signifant positive growth happens.  With persistent work on the self, awareness, open-mindedness, shadow work, healing and self-love, the pain of yesterday will become your strength of tomorrow. As life throws shit at you, use it as fertilizer. 

After I worked on myself (practicing self-love + working on becoming someone I would fall in love with), I was showered with so much love, health and peace in relationships. The outer world will always reflect your inner world and how you view yourself. 

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Just a little last note...

3 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Also me tolerating her two flake on my two times and not wanting to meet up next week should have made me angry and I should have confronted her and demand respect, and if I didn't get it I should have left. 

Rather than angry, it should've just bored you. Like "Ok whatever, if she wants me, she'd have to put on some effort at this point cuz i'll be busy looking elsewhere."   You don't wanna be that guy who's already emotionally invested after only 2 dates.  Nor that guy who loses his cool from a little friction down the road. 

Confronting her and demanding respect would just be another nice way to display your lack of self-respect, but this time combined with a lack of patience and composture lol. 

Self-respect works almost the same as self-love. The only people who demands respect from others are usually those who didn't brew it internally so they need and want other people to give it externally. Same with love, validation and self-worth. If you naturally respected yourself, you'd just do that, you wouldn't need to seek it or demand it. And reciprocally, people indeed would naturally respect you for that. 

Edited July 3, 2021 by mivafofa
Adding last note

[StarStruck]

5 hours ago, mivafofa said:

Ok I guess you're pretty capable of self-awareness and I have no worries you will find a way to work it through then.. I just wanna let you know you're not alone... even as a female, I've also been needy at some point in my life. It always comes with a lack of self-worth and self-esteem as you pointed out.  I had the luxury of being frequently pursued from just being female but this only added to my frustration when I couldn't feel attracted to anyone, and eventually it led to a scarcity mindset. I was in scarcity of people I find attractive - after much pain in the past, I became pickier and was resolved to only date someone I felt attracted to. And that didn't happen for nearly 2 years before I finally found someone I was into.  I just wanted to see him again... I probably wanted so desperately to be loved back as well (but how could he when I didn't even love myself either right?).  I was desperate, needy and too forgiving.  My sense of self-worth thrown out the window. Red flags turned white. Naturally I blew it.  And the pain is brutal... so brutal, as you know.  (I think I was depressed too, and probably resigned myself to escape depression by using relationship as a clutch.)

I can resonate with this.

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But in the end of the day, I learned these kinds of pain were really a blessing in disguise. Overcoming our most painful moments in life is where real signifant positive growth happens.  With persistent work on the self, awareness, open-mindedness, shadow work, healing and self-love, the pain of yesterday will become your strength of tomorrow. As life throws shit at you, use it as fertilizer. 

 

I'm glad it happened though. It opened my eyes about the truth about myself and how dating works. For some reason (while I know it is not true), I thought only guys can rejected through this way.

Dating dynamic is different for a guy than for a girl though. I guess a lot of girls are afraid to be pumped and dumped. We guys don't have this, so our strategy is different. I guess if I could fuck this girl and she dump me I would be less "fucked". In a sense, I feel - emotionally - pumped and dumped by her because she keep cancelling on me the last moment.

This is not the first time girls do this to me though. If they are manipulative like this eventually I will have to become like that too.

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After I worked on myself (practicing self-love + working on becoming someone I would fall in love with), I was showered with so much love, health and peace in relationships. The outer world will always reflect your inner world and how you view yourself. 

That is really the crux. Especially for a guy it is important to have high self-worth, otherwise we tend to put a girl on a pedestal and that is an instant libido killer for a lot of girls.

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Just a little last note...

Rather than angry, it should've just bored you. Like "Ok whatever, if she wants me, she'd have to put on some effort at this point cuz i'll be busy looking elsewhere."   You don't wanna be that guy who's already emotionally invested after only 2 dates.  Nor that guy who loses his cool from a little friction down the road. 
 

Hm, I guess that was my biggest mistake; to be emotionally detached.

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Confronting her and demanding respect would just be another nice way to display your lack of self-respect, but this time combined with a lack of patience and composture lol. 

 

With confronting I mean just telling her how I perceive things like: "you cancelled our date 3 times in a row, what is up with that?"

I don't think that is losing patience and composture.

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Self-respect works almost the same as self-love. The only people who demands respect from others are usually those who didn't brew it internally so they need and want other people to give it externally. Same with love, validation and self-worth. If you naturally respected yourself, you'd just do that, you wouldn't need to seek it or demand it. And reciprocally, people indeed would naturally respect you for that. 

True

[mivafofa]

On 03/07/2021 at 6:47 AM, StarStruck said:

With confronting I mean just telling her how I perceive things like: "you cancelled our date 3 times in a row, what is up with that?"

I don't think that is losing patience and composture.

Yeah no that'd make you look dumb or autistic in her eyes by displaying that you can't take a hint even when it's that obvious. Girl cancelled 3 times... that says enough. The message is clear.  What's the point of confronting her? No really, what's the outcome you're hoping from that? 

You wanna show you have standards and self-respect? You'd do that by moving on. You tell her "k let me know when you're free." then move on. Get busy and never text back again unless she does. Standard is showed, not spoken. Also she's not your gf, you're not at the stage yet where it's welcomed to confront and call somebody out, it'd be clumsy and awkward. 

It'd also be futile to confront her anyway because most girls are not straightforward when they turn someone down, as they don't want to upset you or hurt you directly. (I know it hurts you more in a way because you had hope and expectations so their actions send you in chaotic confusion, but they don't know that) Instead, they hope you'd either take a hint or just move on. When you don't - it gets weird. and borderline creepy (to the girl)

[StarStruck]

22 minutes ago, mivafofa said:

Yeah no that'd make you look dumb or autistic in her eyes by displaying that you can't take a hint even when it's that obvious. Girl cancelled 3 times... that says enough. The message is clear.  What's the point of confronting her? No really, what's the outcome you're hoping from that? 

You wanna show you have standards and self-respect? You'd do that by moving on. You tell her "k let me know when you're free." then move on. Get busy and never text back again unless she does. Standard is showed, not spoken. Also she's not your gf, you're not at the stage yet where it's welcomed to confront and call somebody out, it'd be clumsy and awkward. 

It'd also be futile to confront her anyway because most girls are not straightforward when they turn someone down, as they don't want to upset you or hurt you directly. (I know it hurts you more in a way because you had hope and expectations so their actions send you in chaotic confusion, but they don't know that) Instead, they hope you'd either take a hint or just move on. When you don't - it gets weird. and borderline creepy (to the girl)

I will definitely not confront her or take contact with her but as a last ditch effort I will try it. The more she can hurt me the more I can grow.

That is actually what I do with girls who's number I get and they flake through text. I just call them until they have the decency to pickup the phone and tell me. After two times it stopped hurting and gave me freedom.

I'm really busy on develop self-esteem. That is the major point for me. Girls can just smell a little pitch of neediness or creepiness. When I approach really hot girls I vibe with them very well but after I while they just smell the stench of niceness and they get repulsed.

[ertopolice]

On 10/6/2021 at 6:43 AM, Leo Gura said:

That's good

That's fine. That's all you can do for now. Just contain your neediness from outward expression.

YES! This for fuck's sake!

That's silly. She doesn't need you telling her how hot she is. She already knows that if she's hot. Every fool tells her that.

Nobody has ever complimented her about her metaphysical knowledge. This is a panty-dropper compliment.

ALWAYS!

Don't worry too much, this was a very valuable learning experience for you which you will draw on for all future girls. It's a lifelong lesson! Appreciate the value of that.

Now we all women in the forum are waiting for compliments on our metaphysical knowledge

 

 

[ertopolice]

On 10/6/2021 at 7:45 AM, StarStruck said:

Sure thing. There are a lot of good looking women but there are a not a lot of women that look great and also have depth and think about life on a deep level.

I feel like there won't be any other girls like her. Meeting girls is not easy for me and getting hotties with brains is even more difficult.

It was really thanks to pickup I got her. Without pickup I would never know her. I did some pickup this week and it didn't go well so I'm thinking "she is a dime and I shouldn't lose her".

For me bring a girl into my life is like bringing a dynamite in my life. All the flaws in my life and my personality get exposed and I know that if I want her in my life (or any other girl), I need to fix my life.

Hotties with brains

 

It's a curse

Sorry but in spite of my ocasional low self esteem..i'd be considerer a "hottie". I dislike showing off or dressing too provocative because sometimes you feel you never gonna find guys with some intelectual interests out there...

I care of my mind and my body..but being kinda intelectual is SO hard becacuase u end up bored and staying home.