Is feminine really related to submisiveness?

[tatsumaru]

It is clear that both males and females possess both masculine and feminine energies (yin / yang) so when I am referring to feminine I am not referring to females per se I am referring to Yin. That being said it is supposedly more common for females to be more feminine than males and certain books like David Deida's The Way of The Superior Man claim that feminine energies are somewhat correlated with submissiveness while masculine energies with assertiveness. But if that is true then why are there so many feminine deities in the Hindu and Buddhism lore who are quite brutal and dominant. For example the feminine Buddha Vajrayogini said: "I am not suited to polite society, to social striving, upward mobility, and making good impressions. I am radically honest, sensitive, brilliant, and blunt. I hold up a mirror to the best and worst facets of human life.” ~Vajrayogini . So clearly she doesn't give two fucks about what most men want. If you look at some of her depictions you can even see here stepping on some kinds of beings (not sure what they are maybe demons or just ignorant idiots) which is also quite a dominant attitude as far as I understand it. And considering that the feminine is the gateway to truth, there's probably not a lot that's masculine about Vajrayogini. So how does this work?

[mandyjw]

Spirituality is about the transcendence of duality and identity, submissive/assertive, masculine/feminine. Deities are often combining stuff together, or illustrating something. If there are no men and no women, but all is "spirit" what is there to submit to?

[kinesin]

@tatsumaru  Try not to think of it in terms of 'submissiveness' and 'assertiveness', those words are too strongly associated with human behaviours.

As forces, the masculine is an outwardly expressing force, while the feminine is an inwardly recieving force.  When you put your hands together in a praying gesture and then move them both to the left, your right hand is in the masculine position and your left is feminine.  When you move your hands to the right, the left becomes masculine and the right feminine.

I can't give an answer regarding Vajrayogini specifically because I'm not familiar with it.

[Tangerinedream]

The idea of the feminine being submissive was created through repression.  Through 1000s of years of feminine repression, they became submissive as a bi-product. 
A wild and untamed feminine is seen as a threat.  
the feminine submits during sex aka gives the body to be penetrated. 
Submissive in that regard yes. 
But submissive personality is what the shadow masculine also wants. 
true feminine is free and flowing and not to be repressed 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Tangerinedream

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, kinesin said:

@tatsumaru  Try not to think of it in terms of 'submissiveness' and 'assertiveness', those words are too strongly associated with human behaviours.

As forces, the masculine is an outwardly expressing force, while the feminine is an inwardly recieving force.  When you put your hands together in a praying gesture and then move them both to the left, your right hand is in the masculine position and your left is feminine.  When you move your hands to the right, the left becomes masculine and the right feminine.

I can't give an answer regarding Vajrayogini specifically because I'm not familiar with it.

Appreciated, but this requires a correction from a technical point of view. Centrifugal = feminine, Centripetal = masculine. The force that causes things to move away from the center and expand is feminine and the force that causes things to contract and compress toward the center is masculine. Remember that emptiness is feminine and form is masculine so there's no way that radiation is masculine. That's why the term Mother Earth actually doesn't make a lot of sense. It's Mother Sky and Father Earth. As for the praying thing I am not sure how that functions can you elaborate?

9 minutes ago, Tangerinedream said:

The idea of the feminine being submissive was created through repression.  Through 1000s of years of feminine repression, they became submissive as a bi-product. 
A wild and untamed feminine is seen as a threat.  
the feminine submits during sex aka gives the body to be penetrated. 
Submissive in that regard yes. 
But submissive personality is what the shadow masculine also wants. 
true feminine is free and flowing and not to be repressed 

That makes sense. So I suppose a more correct term for feminine would be surrendering/allowing, not submitting?
But then I've met women who insist on being submissive, slaves even and feel uncomfortable being free because they don't know what to do when they aren't being controlled. Do you think this behavior is some sort of psychological issue?

Edited May 17, 2021 by tatsumaru

[SamC]

@tatsumaru If the feminie is connected with the truth, than the feminie should be ruthless in it's penetration of falsehood or in other words, totally expressive. The feminie energy might in other words act out and don't give a shit when it comes to being authentic and emotions. ( maybe like the Feeler types?) 

If this is the case, then conciousness ( masculinity) - which is the same thing as truth aswell is observing the feminine energy and taking it in, and in that allowing it to be, which could be seen as allowance instead of assertiveness. This could be the reason why the feminie is submissive in terms of sexual energy but maybe not in " all situations" because there is a " dance" where the two energies switch roles. The same goes for sex if you haven't noticed.

I am paraphrasing here but Osho said something along the line that the key to having amazing sex  is for the man to express his sexual desire implicitly and to make the womans desire be expressed explicitly. ( where she is doing the work, instead of him basically)

So to answer your question. Feminity may be both submissive and expressive and masculinity may be both giving allowance + being assertive - depending on the situation and where in the dance you currently are.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by SamC

[tatsumaru]

3 minutes ago, SamC said:

@tatsumaru If the feminie is connected with the truth, than the feminie should be ruthless in it's penetration of falsehood or in other words, totally expressive. The feminie energy might in other words act out and don't give a shit when it comes to being authentic and emotions. ( maybe like the Feeler types?) 

If this is the case, then conciousness ( masculinity) - which is the same thing as truth aswell is observing the feminine energy and taking it in, and in that allowing it to be, which could be seen as allowance instead of assertiveness. This could be the reason why the feminie is submissive in terms of sexual energy but maybe not in " all situations" because there is a " dance" where the two energies switch roles. The same goes for sex if you haven't noticed.

I am paraphrasing here but Osho said something along the line that the key to having amazing sex  is for the man to express his sexual desire implicitly and to make the womans desire be expressed explicitly. ( where she is doing the work, instead of him basically)

So to answer your question. Feminity may be both submissive and expressive and masculinity may be both giving allowance + being assertive - depending on the situation and where in the dance you currently are.

Interesting point of view. I don't agree that consciousness is masculinity though.

[Tangerinedream]

1 hour ago, tatsumaru said:

That makes sense. So I suppose a more correct term for feminine would be surrendering/allowing, not submitting?
But then I've met women who insist on being submissive, slaves even and feel uncomfortable being free because they don't know what to do when they aren't being controlled. Do you think this behavior is some sort of psychological issue?

Yes surrendering. 
to me ‘submitting’ is being controlled and complying, obeying authority, conforming. 
I think a person who wants this has psychological trauma, or it’s simply all they know, and venturing beyond that would be frightening, so they would rather submit than habe personal freedom.  
A woman being submissive is outdated. 
It’s giving away your power. 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Tangerinedream

[SamC]

@tatsumaru Who know´s maybe it isn´t, maybe it is. All I know is that a lot of people argue for it to be the case ( David Deida for example). For me, it sounds plausible - because then intuition would be connected to the subconscious ( which is the divine feminine) and logic and reasoning would be connected to consciousness ( which is the divine masculine)

What do you see consciousness as being in this case?

[Tangerinedream]

[tatsumaru]

56 minutes ago, SamC said:

@tatsumaru Who know´s maybe it isn´t, maybe it is. All I know is that a lot of people argue for it to be the case ( David Deida for example). For me, it sounds plausible - because then intuition would be connected to the subconscious ( which is the divine feminine) and logic and reasoning would be connected to consciousness ( which is the divine masculine)

What do you see consciousness as being in this case?

I think this chart is somewhat messed up. For example integration is definitely masculine while disintegration is definitely feminine. It is integration which turns emptiness into form and disintegration which turns form into emptiness. Also I am not sure if the feminine should be on the right. If you take the yin yang symbol for example the transformation of masculine to feminine occurs on the left in an upward motion and clockwise fashion (when it is depicted correctly). You could argue that the symbol rotates and therefore the feminine will rotate on the right as well however by the time it approaches the right side it's already passed its culmination and beginning to transform into yang so not sure if the right side would be appropriate for Yin. Anything that has to do with focus is also Yang for Yin is centrifugal not centripetal. From that chart I only agree that the feminine corresponds to 'open', 'being', 'heart' and possibly 'intuition'. Anything conceptual/cerebro-centric I would also attribute to yang while anything intuitive/heart-centric I would attribute to yin.

As for consciousness, I don't think consciousness belongs to the magic show of yin and yang and I think it is beyond both yin and yang and is therefore neither empty nor form.

This is my understanding of who's who in duality:
yang………………………yin.
centripetal………………..centrifugal.
integrating………………..disintegrating.
spiral in…………………spiral out.
implosive…………………explosive.
converge…………………..diverge.
in…………………………..out
generative…………………radiative.
gravity………………..levity
inhalation…………………exhalation.
sphere…………………torus.
solid………………………..vaporous
rotation decrease……………rotation increase.
heating……………………cooling.
charging…………………..discharging.
contraction………………..expansion.
Father Earth…..………………. Mother Sky
particle………………………..wave.
descension………..……ascension.

 

24 minutes ago, Tangerinedream said:

I am wondering if that is 'wounded feminine' vs 'masculine' or 'wounded feminine' vs 'wounded masculine' because both of those descriptions seem quite dysfunctional.

 

[Tangerinedream]

35 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

I am wondering if that is 'wounded feminine' vs 'masculine' or 'wounded feminine' vs 'wounded masculine' because both of those descriptions seem quite dysfunctional

Yes it’s both wounded. 
 

Here are more

: 

 

[blackchair]

oh god no....

[SamC]

@tatsumaru

5 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

I think this chart is somewhat messed up. For example integration is definitely masculine while disintegration is definitely feminine. It is integration which turns emptiness into form and disintegration which turns form into emptiness. Also I am not sure if the feminine should be on the right. If you take the yin yang symbol for example the transformation of masculine to feminine occurs on the left in an upward motion and clockwise fashion (when it is depicted correctly). You could argue that the symbol rotates and therefore the feminine will rotate on the right as well however by the time it approaches the right side it's already passed its culmination and beginning to transform into yang so not sure if the right side would be appropriate for Yin. Anything that has to do with focus is also Yang for Yin is centrifugal not centripetal. From that chart I only agree that the feminine corresponds to 'open', 'being', 'heart' and possibly 'intuition'. Anything conceptual/cerebro-centric I would also attribute to yang while anything intuitive/heart-centric I would attribute to yin.

As for consciousness, I don't think consciousness belongs to the magic show of yin and yang and I think it is beyond both yin and yang and is therefore neither empty nor form.

This is my understanding of who's who in duality:
yang………………………yin.
centripetal………………..centrifugal.
integrating………………..disintegrating.
spiral in…………………spiral out.
implosive…………………explosive.
converge…………………..diverge.
in…………………………..out
generative…………………radiative.
gravity………………..levity
inhalation…………………exhalation.
sphere…………………torus.
solid………………………..vaporous
rotation decrease……………rotation increase.
heating……………………cooling.
charging…………………..discharging.
contraction………………..expansion.
Father Earth…..………………. Mother Sky
particle………………………..wave.
descension………..……ascension.

 

I am wondering if that is 'wounded feminine' vs 'masculine' or 'wounded feminine' vs 'wounded masculine' because both of those descriptions seem quite dysfunctional.

 

@tatsumaru Interesting! I interpret it differently.

Disintegration is for me as an example linked to a more reductionistic approach which I generally connect to logic, reasoning, and masculinity while integration is more intuitive and right-brained ( feminine). 

[tatsumaru]

2 hours ago, Peter Miklis said:

 (yeah I know, everything is a social construct, but I don't want to go that deep in this post).

If you are not ready to have a discussion regarding certain absolute truths that you claim then you'd better not claim them at all.

[Zigzag Idiot]

Regarding: Is feminine really related to submisiveness?

Submissive seems derogatory although maybe it can be used in instances where it isn’t.

The Teachings I follow would use the term passive. To me, passive is a term which can describe a way of being that denotes great strength, non reactionary, judicious, or having equanimity.

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

Regarding: Is feminine really related to submisiveness?

Submissive seems derogatory although maybe it can be used in instances where it isn’t.

The Teachings I follow would use the term passive. To me, passive is a term which can describe a way of being that denotes great strength, non reactionary, judicious, or having equanimity.

The word 'submissive' feels derogatory to me as well. Although devotion seems to be quite submissive too, female consorts washing the feet of all kinds of Buddhas and deities etc. It is still joyful though where in current society submission is usually grounded in desperation and confusion.