Free will

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

31 minutes ago, freejoy said:

One has free choice to focus on any particular thought by intention. Maybe?

Hmm perhaps. But what makes you choose one thought over another thought? What makes one thought comfortable and another one uncomfortable? Do we decide which thought we like or do we just like whatever thought we like, because that's just how it is? The only thing that comes to my mind is meditation. Sometimes I sit there, trying to focus on my breath, when I get lost in monkey mind. I want to focus on my breath, but monkey mind just takes over. It doesn't feel like I am free to focus on my breath. I focus on whatever I focus on. Or maybe I just THINK that I want to be focusing on my breath, but I am lost in my monkey mind because that is what I secretly want to do? I honestly don't know...

Thanks to you I'm having a mind fuck right now!  

Edited March 25, 2021 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[neovox]

The sense of "free will" is essential in the conscious experience. You experience dualistically in order to "choose" and become fully conscious of your experience/ choice. You are free  to experience whatever you "choose", but with a constant gravity towards Absolute/ Love. The experience of free will is what internalizes Love. It has to be earned so to speak to be fully appreciated and made conscious. 

Your body feels real because your experience is oriented from identification with it. This is the point from which you perceive. 

When consciousness and identification expands beyond body and form, perception is no longer "my body, thoughts, emotions, free will". God is willing, you are a point of experience.

 

[freejoy]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Hmm perhaps. But what makes you choose one thought over another thought? What makes one thought comfortable and another one uncomfortable? Do we decide which thought we like or do we just like whatever thought we like, because that's just how it is? The only thing that comes to my mind is meditation. Sometimes I sit there, trying to focus on my breath, when I get lost in monkey mind. I want to focus on my breath, but monkey mind just takes over. It doesn't feel like I am free to focus on my breath. I focus on whatever I focus on. Or maybe I just THINK that I want to be focusing on my breath, but I am lost in my monkey mind because that is what I secretly want to do? I honestly don't know...

Thanks to you I'm having a mind fuck right now!  

When we were babies we didn't know anything. We had to learn to move our fingers.

We had to learn a billion things.

All this gets recorded in our subconscious mind so with only an intention we can move our fingers. No thought required.

Unless one learns to move ones fingers playing a piano becomes something that is not a probability.

All this is built up and choice seems to dictate quantum probabilities for certain thoughts to arise.

Here's a quote from the Tao:

Every being in the universe
is an expression of the Tao.
It springs into existence,
unconscious, perfect, free,
takes on a physical body,
lets circumstances complete it.
That is why every being
spontaneously honors the Tao.

The Tao gives birth to all beings,
nourishes them, maintains them,
cares for them, comforts them, protects them,
takes them back to itself,
creating without possessing,
acting without expecting,
guiding without interfering.
That is why love of the Tao
is in the very nature of things.

Tao Te Ching
by Lao Tzu

So through karma (the "circumstances" or context of ones birth) certain things can happen and some can't.

By picking one thought gives rise to a different set of quantum probabilities for next thoughts.

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by freejoy

[integral]

"Quantum realities have a categorical indeterminism built into them". 

Sais a paradigm. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by integral

[Vido]

The word free will doesn't exist in objective reality. The word free will only get it's meaning if you buy into the illusion of an observer and there are 2 things that's not the observer, now you get to choose. Depending on the level you illusion you subscribe to, you will have free will. However, if you identify with everything, then that word ceases to have meaning. 

So, as long as you haven't seen through the illusion there is free will. Also, unconditional Love is free will that has evolved to its max. Like pichu to raichu. haha

[Mason Riggle]

For me, the realization of 'no free will' was fucking awesome. It's led to a whole set of other realizations, such as 'no self', the illusion of 'doing', and also the infinite God.

There's no 'me', there's nothing for 'me' to do ('doing' is an illusion).. yet I continue to be how I am.. How cool!! 

My intelligent organism still behaves intelligently, all by itself. 

Of course, this happened the same way a plant grows a flower.. it happens if and when it happens when the conditions are right. If I was born as you, I would be you right now, but I was born me, so 'being me' is what I 'do' and I never try to do it.. I just 'am me', and have no choice in the matter. 

LIBERATION! Not having free will is so.... freeing?

 

[Moksha]

16 hours ago, 1liamo78 said:

@Moksha I know what the ego is,  so when you became awake , did you stop behaving and thinking and choosing from the ego mind? 

There was a significant shift in my thinking and behavior, but awakening doesn't destroy the conditioned mind. It simply is the direct realization that You are not your conditioned mind. Self-Realization awakens you to the profound space of Consciousness, which is who You ultimately are, and within which the conditioned mind exists. You observe the thoughts that arise, without being identified by them.

To your question on free will: You, as Consciousness, are freely making the choices that define your form. In that sense, free will exists. The conditioned mind, that you once thought was you, never had any free will in the first place. It is shaped and conditioned by biology and environment, and has no free will of its own accord. Consciousness is always calling the shots.

[1liamo78]

@Moksha this concept and claim that I hear every day from many different people of “being awake”, I find very egotistical and delusional, I really am not trying to be rude or disrespectful, but that is how I see it, you can expand your consciousness and gain wisdom and even reach a certain state of mind that changes your reality or become conscious of your infinite awareness, but I assure you that there are many many many more insights to get and knowledge to gain and higher levels of consciousness and I’m sure that there are many truths about reality and existence that nobody has ever come close to realising, I’m not an awakened being or an enlightened man but I’m sure there are many things that I could teach you that would drastically change your view of reality and I’m sure that there are many many things that you could teach me that would drastically change my view of reality,

god bless you and spread kindness and understanding ?✌️

[Moksha]

35 minutes ago, 1liamo78 said:

@Moksha this concept and claim that I hear every day from many different people of “being awake”, I find very egotistical and delusional

Good for you. Never take another person's word for what is. The only reality that matters is your direct experience.

The many things that we could teach each other would be entirely conceptual, and thus relatively worthless. In relative reality, the only true knowledge is that we know nothing. ?

[1liamo78]

@Moksha now that is smart,  I think we can learn from other people to a certain extent but it is far deeper when its understood by experience,  and when I hear someone saying that they know nothing and don't spout of "facts" and are cool with not knowing then I automatically take that person more seriously 

[integral]

16 hours ago, 1liamo78 said:

@Moksha this concept and claim that I hear every day from many different people of “being awake”, I find very egotistical and delusional, I really am not trying to be rude or disrespectful, but that is how I see it, you can expand your consciousness and gain wisdom and even reach a certain state of mind that changes your reality or become conscious of your infinite awareness, but I assure you that there are many many many more insights to get and knowledge to gain and higher levels of consciousness and I’m sure that there are many truths about reality and existence that nobody has ever come close to realising, I’m not an awakened being or an enlightened man but I’m sure there are many things that I could teach you that would drastically change your view of reality and I’m sure that there are many many things that you could teach me that would drastically change my view of reality

12 hours ago, 1liamo78 said:

@Moksha now that is smart,  I think we can learn from other people to a certain extent but it is far deeper when its understood by experience,  and when I hear someone saying that they know nothing and don't spout of "facts" and are cool with not knowing then I automatically take that person more seriously 

The topic is to explore free will openly with out bias? Then why filter anything through your method of sense making? Wouldn't it be more productive to explore the ideas with out the bagage of your sense making or your paradigm? Or just explore other paradigms, Experience what is communicated in a sense? See it from their perspective completely as is. 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by integral

[Mason Riggle]

Consider that even if you had 'free will'.. if you could 'choose' whatever you want.. How would you choose what it is that you want? Do you have 'free want'?  Can you want to choose what you don't want to choose? Only if you want to. Do you see the problem here?

Choosing 'freely' would be synonymous with 'no reason for choosing what you choose'. Choices would be free of influences, free of causes, free of desires. 'free' choices would be purely random. 

You couldn't explain why you chose what you 'freely' chose.. You could say, 'because I wanted to', but then you couldn't explain why you wanted to, unless you chose what you wanted.. another choice you couldn't explain how you made 'freely'. 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[allislove]

If someone asks, But what is love?
answer, Dissolving the will.

True freedom comes to those
who have escaped the questions
of free will and fate.

Rumi

[1liamo78]

@integral if I try to explore reality without my sense making filters then I would not be able to ask questions or read or write or respond with anything really

[1liamo78]

I really appreciate replys that have no spiritual cliches or that are trying to sound great,  just honest, humble responses that stick to the question at hand as simply as possible,  like wonderseekers replys ?✌?

Edited March 26, 2021 by 1liamo78

[1liamo78]

1 hour ago, allislove said:

If someone asks, But what is love?
answer, Dissolving the will.

True freedom comes to those
who have escaped the questions
of free will and fate.

Rumi

Sounds great,  but I have not reached the place where I don't question these things,  there are many great philosophers from history and contemporary that question these subjects passionately,  from Plato and Aristotle to Carl Jung, dennant to Hume  to Leo gura even,  that quote from rumi may be true but irrelevant to most of us,  but it's a cool reply ?✌

Edited March 26, 2021 by 1liamo78

[1liamo78]

On 3/25/2021 at 0:10 PM, integral said:

"Quantum realities have a categorical indeterminism built into them". 

Sais a paradigm. 

I have seen this video before,  I probably seen most YouTube videos on free will lol was a bit of an obsession for a while ?

[allislove]

1 hour ago, 1liamo78 said:

Sounds great,  but I have not reached the place where I don't question these things,  there are many great philosophers from history and contemporary that question these subjects passionately,  from Plato and Aristotle to Carl Jung, dennant to Hume  to Leo gura even,  that quote from rumi may be true but irrelevant to most of us,  but it's a cool reply ?✌

'you' never reach the place, you are Rumi  

[1liamo78]

@allislove I am rumi?

5 hours ago, allislove said:

'you' never reach the place, you are Rumi  

@integral I @Moksha this concept and claim that I hear every day from many different people of “being awake”, I find very egotistical and delusional, I really am not trying to be rude or disrespectful, but that is how I see it, you can expand your consciousness and gain wisdom and even reach a certain state of mind that changes your reality or become conscious of your infinite awareness, but I assure you that there are many many many more insights to get and knowledge to gain and higher levels of consciousness and I’m sure that there are many truths about reality and existence that nobody has ever come close to realising, I’m not an awakened being or an enlightened man but I’m sure there are many things that I could teach you that would drastically change your view of reality and I’m sure that there are many many things that you could teach me that would drastically change my view of reality,

god bless you and spread kindness and understanding ?✌️

[Moksha]

22 hours ago, 1liamo78 said:

@Moksha now that is smart,  I think we can learn from other people to a certain extent but it is far deeper when its understood by experience,  and when I hear someone saying that they know nothing and don't spout of "facts" and are cool with not knowing then I automatically take that person more seriously 

Awakening is directly experienced, without concepts. I understand and respect your desire to carve your own path, but don't make the mistake of believing that just because it hasn't happened to you, it cannot happen to others, or even to yourself.

Check out the Perennial Philosophy, from Aldous Huxley, based on his research on universal wisdom in every age and civilization:

• There is an infinite, changeless reality beneath the world of change
• This same reality lies at the core of every personality
• The purpose of life is to discover this reality experientially, that is, to realize God while here on earth

Rather than dismissing this wisdom as egocentric, realize that there may be a common truth to thousands of years of spiritual searching. Only you can directly experience it for yourself, but at least stay open to the possibility, and respect that maybe some of us are sharing our realization with authenticity.