The mind controlling the mind?

[Recursoinominado]

It is possible?

When we "direct" our focus to our breathing (or anything else), we are using the "mind", aren't we? 

I am talking in a dual sense here, because i know someone will talk about how the "mind" is only a concept that in a non-dual perspective doesn't exist. I get this, but it doesn't help me to understand my question. 

There is anything outside the "mind"? 

[Osaid]

Don't think there is any controller, except the one you imagine

Problem with this is I don't really get how it works relatively. How do you reconcile it with personal responsibility? It gets really mindfucky when I try to contemplate it.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Osaid

[Bluff]

5 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

When we "direct" our focus to our breathing (or anything else), we are using the "mind", aren't we? 

I am talking in a dual sense here, because i know someone will talk about how the "mind" is only a concept that in a non-dual perspective doesn't exist. I get this, but it doesn't help me to understand my question. 

There is anything outside the "mind"? 

You should understand your question, before you ask it. 

In case you meant "I don't get the answer.." :

You never will from your current perspektive. You have to transcend your understanding of the mind. 

To see what the box is, in which you are in, you have to see it from the outside. 

See the mind as the commutation of all things that you experience, not as a thing itself. Take away all finite things from your experience and see what remains. What you'll find is empty knowing. 

[Leo Gura]

@Recursoinominado It all depends on how you definite your terms, since they are relative.

If you define "mind" as something dual and finite, then by your own definition there will be stuff outside it that controls it.

If you define "mind" as Infinite Mind, then it's is One and nondual and self-governing.

Controller vs controlled is a duality.

When you say, "we are using the mind", what is this magical "we"? Realize that this "we" IS your own Mind!

Mind controls itself like this:

Infinite Mind imagines something that it calls "not-mind" and then proceeds to say that that thing caused the mind. Which is like pretending your tail isn't yours but someone else's, so you could enjoy eating it.

[mandyjw]

Mind pushes the limits of where it can go and burns up. Like a moth to the flame. It is burned up in what illuminates it anyway. 

[Recursoinominado]

On 27/01/2021 at 0:38 AM, Osaid said:

How do you reconcile it with personal responsibility? It gets really mindfucky when I try to contemplate it.

Exactly lol

On 27/01/2021 at 7:41 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Recursoinominado It all depends on how you definite your terms, since they are relative.

If you define "mind" as something dual and finite, then by your own definition there will be stuff outside it that controls it.

If you define "mind" as Infinite Mind, then it's is One and nondual and self-governing.

Controller vs controlled is a duality.

When you say, "we are using the mind", what is this magically "we"? Realize that this "we" IS your own Mind!

Mind controls itself like this:

Infinite Mind imagines something that it calls "not-mind" and then proceeds to say that that thing caused the mind. Which is like pretending your tail isn't yours but someone else's, so you could enjoy eating it.

Oh God! This is some serious mindfuck! That image is so profound when you put it like that

On 27/01/2021 at 8:27 AM, mandyjw said:

Mind pushes the limits of where it can go and burns up. Like a moth to the flame. It is burned up in what illuminates it anyway. 

So, is the mind trying to stop/transcend the mind not realizing it is itself?

[Recursoinominado]

I have another question?

What is concentration, focus, attention? 

Who controls where attention goes?

Based on the answers above, the attention controls itself and so it is all a movie which has been decided all it's moments since forever?

These questions about attention are like an existential itch to me...

Who decides to sit, meditate and focus on one point for 1h?

[mandyjw]

13 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

So, is the mind trying to stop/transcend the mind not realizing it is itself?

That's like saying a coffee filter is trying to stop the liquid from flowing through. The parts of a mechanism itself don't have an intention. If you just look at the coffee filter itself in isolation,  without a big picture understanding of how coffee is made, you might come away with that conclusion.

You could say that you don't explore or push the boundaries far enough because you think you know how things already are. You're satisfied with being unsatisfied. As you become more sensitive to dissatisfaction and/or as you see the glow of someone who HAS explored the boundaries, you start to question what you think you know. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by mandyjw

[Recursoinominado]

9 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

That's like saying a coffee filter is trying to stop the liquid from flowing through. The parts of a mechanism itself don't have an intention. If you just look at the coffee filter itself in isolation,  without a big picture understanding of how coffee is made, you might come away with that conclusion.

How this relates to the mind and controlling the mind?

10 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

You could say that you don't explore or push the boundaries far enough because you think you know how things already are. You're satisfied with being unsatisfied. As you become more sensitive to dissatisfaction and/or as you see the glow of someone who HAS explored the boundaries, you start to question what you think you know. 

That makes sense but i don't get it what is your point?

Dumb it down a little lol 

[mandyjw]

@Recursoinominado Why would you want to control your mind? What do you seek to gain, what's the end game or the imagined reward for doing so? 

[Recursoinominado]

30 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Recursoinominado Why would you want to control your mind? What do you seek to gain, what's the end game or the imagined reward for doing so? 

Without self-control we would act like animals (more so).

If i am able to sit and watch my breath for 1h despite all contrary thoughts and urges, is because i had to exercise some self-control.

[mandyjw]

3 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Without self-control we would act like animals (more so).

If i am able to sit and watch my breath for 1h despite all contrary thoughts and urges, is because i had to exercise some self-control.

But you didn't answer the question. Because you don't want to act like an animal? Why not what are you afraid of? What's the opposite of that, is that what you want? What do you really want to gain that you think you'll gain by controlling your mind? 

[Recursoinominado]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

Because you don't want to act like an animal?

Because, as an animal, i naturally act in a toxic/unconscious manner and this brings suffering.

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

Why not what are you afraid of?

Suffering.

 

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

What's the opposite of that, is that what you want?

Bliss, yes, i want it.

 

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

What do you really want to gain that you think you'll gain by controlling your mind?

A chance to feel blissful.

[mandyjw]

5 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Because, as an animal, i naturally act in a toxic/unconscious manner and this brings suffering.

So you are "bad", and you need to act good so you won't suffer. OMG, you're a Christian! Avoiding sins of the flesh I see. Just teasing. Sort of. 

7 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Suffering.

Bliss, yes, i want it.

A chance to feel blissful.

You want to feel good. You've never wanted anything for any other reason because you thought it would make you feel good. Now you're whittled down things you wanted and now you're questioning thought itself. What is the relationship between thought and feeling? 

[Recursoinominado]

34 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

So you are "bad", and you need to act good so you won't suffer. OMG, you're a Christian! Avoiding sins of the flesh I see. Just teasing. Sort of. 

No, nothing like that stage blue crap. I just know certain behaviors bring inner peace and others bring inner conflict. Nothing to do with good, bad, or morals, just karma (Action and consequences). If i indulge in animalistic behavior, i can eat junkie food all day, the body feels good for a second and shitty for a long time. If i apply self-control and develop a habit of meditation, the body feels uncomfortable for a second and then feel good for a long time.

43 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

You want to feel good.

Yeah, everyone does. No one would pursue enlightenment if it felt painful in the end.

44 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

You've never wanted anything for any other reason because you thought it would make you feel good.

Well, there is also direct experience...

47 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Now you're whittled down things you wanted and now you're questioning thought itself.

I don't know what you mean by that.

49 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

What is the relationship between thought and feeling? 

Thought creates meaning out of things, meaning calls for feelings.

Feelings are always present, but thoughts aren't, necessarily. 

[mandyjw]

10 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

No, nothing like that stage blue crap. I just know certain behaviors bring inner peace and others bring inner conflict. Nothing to do with good, bad, or morals, just karma (Action and consequences). If i indulge in animalistic behavior, i can eat junkie food all day, the body feels good for a second and shitty for a long time. If i apply self-control and develop a habit of meditation, the body feels uncomfortable for a second and then feel good for a long time.

I know what you're saying, for example, if I eat much sugar I often feel terrible after. But I discovered with diet and everything else that focusing on how I want to feel is what actually works and makes me happy, not focusing on the stuff I want to avoid and demonizing it.

There's a lot to learn from stage blue, as the mind patterns are still very capable of functioning in us. It's the same tendency of the mind to create a group of people it's "above" by following or processing a certain knowledge or moral code, that it uses in order to avoid the suffering that it projects the people in that OTHER group of people have. Most Christians believe that they are above the world of sinners, and that they are protecting themselves from suffering by having these beliefs. Many people seeking enlightenment often do the same thing, they think that their wholistic knowledge and open mind will save them from suffering in the same way. All of this empowers the mind and beliefs rather than diffusing them. The thought of an open mind is not really the experience of an open mind. 

Having an open mind is realizing the difference between a thought and the reality of the situation. Your awareness itself is already completely unconditionally allowing and open. Thoughts create or limit. You can tell by how a thought feels if it's creating, or limiting. Becoming more aware in general of how thoughts feel is going in the direction of truly being open minded, rather than trying to use a thought (which is not aware) to try to control another thought. 

10 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

Yeah, everyone does. No one would pursue enlightenment if it felt painful in the end.

So now that we know what we want, we want enlightenment because of the way it feels, we start to pay much more attention to feeling itself. Feeling leads us right back to awareness and also is guidance that helps us to align our thoughts. Feeling or awareness is no longer a thought trying to control another thought, or a thought trying to get rid of thought, but openness. 

10 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

I don't know what you mean by that.

It means your questioning the nature of thought itself. I mean are you, or have you just assumed thought is bad and you want to get rid of thoughts? Or are you questioning what thought really is and questioning your own relationship to your own thoughts? 

10 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

Thought creates meaning out of things, meaning calls for feelings.

Do you think the color red or feel the color red? Or both? Is perception thought or feeling? Can you separate thought and feeling?

10 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

Feelings are always present, but thoughts aren't, necessarily. 

Specific feelings come and go like thoughts, but feeling itself leads right to awareness itself, which is the unchanging element of everything you experience. 

[Mason Riggle]

On 1/27/2021 at 5:41 AM, Leo Gura said:

Mind controls itself like this:

 

Mind doesn't 'do anything' besides 'be how it is'. 

There is only 'what is occurring now', and it's always (eternally) now.