What is mental illness from nondual perspective ?

[Nahm]

21 minutes ago, Someone here said:

(Relative to being normal.  But being normal or ill is itself relative to what standards?  Ya get what I'm sayin?)

In experience there is no such thing as being mental or being normal. The whole distinction is a mental fabrication. 

In keeping with your op... Would you say experience such as schizophrenia, epilepsy, bipolar disorder, autism, personality disorder, etc are mental fabrications? If so, what exactly is a “mental fabrication” in this case?  (Not intending any right or wrong, but a deeper dive.)  Also, is that what you would say to someone experiencing those? 

21 minutes ago, Someone here said:

You can act.       But you don't have free will. Nothing special about the ability of acting that makes you have free will. There really isn't any you so what the fuck are we talking about? 

Can you elaborate a bit? What is the distinction between acting, and free will?   “You can act” but not freely...?

21 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Yes the only thing that is not habitual is the true Self. As pure awareness. You are not conditioned as that. But the mistaken identity or the personality is itself just a bunch of habits. Change the habits. You are a new person! 

Is the true self a thing, and at what point is there not the true self? How do you arrive at a distinction of what is not the true self?  (Sincerely trying to understand your comment) What is the ‘you’ which is or is not conditioned, and what is the ‘that’ in “as that”? 

There‘s no self & no free will...but yet the changing of habits, and a ‘new person’ / ‘old person’ ..?

If “you are not conditioned as that” - what’s “that” ? And what’s the “you”, in that context?

21 minutes ago, Someone here said:

You tell me. In this thread I'm the student and you are the teacher. We can switch the roles later on ?

Yeah?      (Also twss)

21 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Well when you are aware that you are dreaming while you are dreaming it's called a lucid dream. How does it happen?  It just happens lol. Still not sure what does that have to do with the topic lol ?

How is a lucid dream distinguishable from a non lucid dream?

[Gesundheit]

Health is a highly subjective matter, especially when it comes to psychology. Who's to say whether a psychopath is mentally ill or just being authentic, and why is authenticity favored over mental illness? Who's to say whether authenticity is a good thing or not? And who's to say whether we should be doing good things or not? In the end, it becomes obvious that all categories must collapse and that none of them is actually true. But we're egos and like to set things the way we like, which is most likely, in accordance to our egoic needs. We're all just egos fighting to spread each one's own narrative. We like life customized to fit us perfectly.

[Nahm]

47 minutes ago, Someone here said:

No I don't deny experience if you mean this . It's just that the experience is not your experience. 

No the absolute is not measurable.  To put it as it is.. The absolute doesn't exist. Because exist is a relative quality. And the absolute is not relative. 

And in all that..... I don't know what does that have to do with the topic lol ??

If absolute is not measurable, is ‘not your experience’ a measurement?  How is that distinguished from a ‘mental fabrication’?

Is there is nonexistence? Any direct experience of nonexistence?  What’s ‘exist’ relative, to? 

It will inevitably hit you in regard to what this has to do with the topic. Or, you’ll ‘cash out’ on the convo, so to speak. One of those scenarios is inevitable. 

[Mu_]

54 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Gesundheit please let's stay on topic.  If you have something of substance regarding the main topic go ahead. 

You are right tho. It's kinda paradoxical and twisted so let's not delve too deep into it. 

This was actually the point I was kinda making. Imagine even letting go of relative and non dual notions. It’s a very different experience then strict argumentative distinctions of either or both together. 

Metaphorically you could say it’s almost like going from solipsism to a non dual shift. 

The further and deeper you go on this path the more subtle you could say it becomes.  

[Member]

In Christianity there's this idea that you pay for your parents' sins. I think there is some truth in that.

[electroBeam]

I admittedly don't really understand your OP because you say alot of stuff that's probably true to you, but definitely isn't to me.

On 07/10/2020 at 5:18 PM, Someone here said:

Or the self that is separate from the traits of the conditioned body-mind.. And to this " self" is the reference of being " disordered".

That's all fine and dandy, now go take 120x of salvia where you literally will experience what its like to be psychotically ill, and tell us the above then.

You(real you) are looking at the universe through the finite mind. No matter how enlightened you think you are(which is a retarded statement in and of itself) the physical avatar which is always in experience never changes that much, and the perspective that the present moment is pretending to look through, is always there. 

Psychotic illness (speaking from experience as this particular incarnation of God has vivid memories of it, and is going through it a bit now) is when that physical avatar changes, or when the perspective in which the present moment is looking through (or looking at infinity through the finite mind) changes, so much that consciousness seems to disrupt itself. In other words synchronicities which we all take for granted, like the fact that we miraculously find a job, the planets are miraculously holding themselves together, the graceful flow of consciousness breaks down and devolves into a disruptive stream. Chaos rather than graceful transition of form.

The dream is like a house of cards, yet all of us on here treat it like its not made of cards but made of concrete. And we somehow think realizing the dreamy nature of form will somehow make us immune to suffering if that dream collapses. The dream is flowing extremely gracefully right now. The fact that you can sanely sit here and read this message takes beyond infinite amount of grace. All of your billions of cells working perfectly together, form that the finite mind is looking through is holding its solidity and only changes slightly, your work colleagues call you at paced times, even if you complain, your ego destructs at an extremely peaceful and good pace along the path. Your memories are perfectly in sync with each other and with form. All of this is extremely malleable. You're a nano meter away from all of that grace just crashing and chaotically imploding on itself. Its a house of cards, not concrete. And psychotic people have unfortunately experienced this the hard way. 

Of course, transition is an illusion and isn't actually happening. But just because its an illusion does not mean it does not exist. It means it does and doesn't exist at the same time/its a dream. You may be in a state of deep realization that transition is a dream, that the past events leading up to present events leading up to future events isn't actually happening, its just pretending to, yet if that transition(which is a dream) stops dreaming a graceful transition, and starts dreaming up chaos, no matter how much you realize its a dream, you'll freak the fuck out. 

And you may be well aware that you are not the body or mind. And that the idea that you're looking through the eyes onto the world isn't actually happening: its a dream/pretending to happen, yet if the dream stops dreaming that, and starts dreaming that you're looking at the world through a can of soup, or a table, and if the perspective you're in (of a 3D world) changes to be something wildly different, no matter how much you're aware that you're not the body or mind, you'll freak the fuck out. 

Examples of psychosis from a metaphysical perspective would be, imagine you're doing physics equations that are due tomorrow, and all of a sudden the physics equations LITERALLY stop obeying their laws. Just randomly. Then start obeying their laws again. Can you imagine how freaky that would be. Especially if you have to hand it in for an assignment. The laws didn't just stop in your head, because there's nothing outside of the present moment, the laws are within the present moment, so the laws literally changed. You have no idea why they changed, how they changed, how the fuck you're gonna hand in your assignment when they changed, what if they change again when you hand in your assignment, and you get bad marks and have no idea why or how to solve it. People just think you're retarded. Which it definitely isn't that from your perspective, but from the dream its relatively true. No one else noticed it changed, they all act like nothing changed etc. They don't understand you, you're all alone on this, no one can help you. Again, you could be as realised as a buddha, that will freak you out. Literally the sun changed how it behaved, and no one noticed. And you don't know when its gonna happen again.

Another example is you're at the hospital and all of a sudden you forget what a hospital is, who everyone is, etc. You've even forgotten that a hospital is a place to get better, you've forgotten that you're looking at infinity through a HUMAN finite mind, could be a table, cat finite mind. Totally forgotten what a human is. No one can help you because you've forgotten what they and help are, it feels extremely uncomfortable, fear of what's going to happen, etc. 

These are examples I've experienced, and I've experienced many more. 

You can say that psychological illness are mental fabrications, are illusions, are made up, are bullshit, are all just in the head, are of a finite self and therefore is just bullshit all you want, but you'll be crying to your mummy hardcore when you actually experience psychotic illness. And talking about it here isn't a genuine way of expressing your intent to understand psychotic illness. Rather go take some salvia and experience what the above is like for yourself. 

Not saying psychological illness isn't a mental fabrication or an illusion, it is, but saying that doesn't give justice to the experience. You're just talking out of your mouth and playing word games. To really understand mental illness, go through it. You've got salvia, which is the safest psychedelic to experience mental illness(datura and iboga would allow you to experience it too but that's too dangerous for most people). So go for it instead of typing here. 

Edit: on a relative level, I haven't taken salvia before, but have experienced plenty of psychosis. And the trip reports of salvia remind me of them. Especially Leo's descriptions, he's bang on with psychosis. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by electroBeam

[Nahm]

@electroBeam

Appreciating the sharing, enjoyed reading that, thanks man. And wishing you all the well being I can muster my friend. 

[electroBeam]

@Nahm thanks nahm appreciate it 

[Someone here]

On 10/8/2020 at 8:53 PM, Nahm said:

In keeping with your op... Would you say experience such as schizophrenia, epilepsy, bipolar disorder, autism, personality disorder, etc are mental fabrications? If so, what exactly is a “mental fabrication” in this case?  (Not intending any right or wrong, but a deeper dive.)  Also, is that what you would say to someone experiencing those? 

I would say they are experiencing something that is clearly different from how the majority of people act. But I wouldn't call them ill or sick. Because most so-called mental diseases are potentially there in how the human mind works. You can observe yourself hearing voices in your head.. Talking to yourself.. Having opposing views (multiple personalities) etc.  Yet it's just mild.  So imo.. The symptoms of mental illness are potentially there in every human.. It's just in their case (mental people) they reach a point where they are unable to control it anymore.. Whereas for the majority of people they are able to fake that they are a "person" with a linear personality. 

 

On 10/8/2020 at 8:53 PM, Nahm said:

Can you elaborate a bit? What is the distinction between acting, and free will?   “You can act” but not freely...?

Acting can happen. Your body mind can act in a way that is in accordance to the conditioning that it received throughout your whole life. Or it can act in a different way that is not familiar with it. In both cases.. Whatever the body-mind does.. It's not "free".. At the center of this whole thing.. There isn't an agency who is doing.. Acting.. Who is ill or normal. 

 

On 10/8/2020 at 8:53 PM, Nahm said:

Is the true self a thing, and at what point is there not the true self? How do you arrive at a distinction of what is not the true self?  (Sincerely trying to understand your comment) What is the ‘you’ which is or is not conditioned, and what is the ‘that’ in “as that”? 

There‘s no self & no free will...but yet the changing of habits, and a ‘new person’ / ‘old person’ ..?

If “you are not conditioned as that” - what’s “that” ? And what’s the “you”, in that context

The true Self is pure awareness. Pure being. Pure existence. This pure being is impersonal. It's not someone or something. It's unconditional because its not this or that. It's just there as a silent witness.   The body and mind are conditioned. It can't act without a program. Therefore not free. You speak English because that's the language you've been programmed with. Change the programming into French language.. The body Wil start speaking French.  And if the body didn't receive any linguistic programming.. The body won't talk any language!.  But in both cases.. You as the awareness are not affected. 

 

On 10/8/2020 at 8:53 PM, Nahm said:

On 10/8/2020 at 8:53 PM, Nahm said:

How is a lucid dream distinguishable from a non lucid dream? 

 

Awareness. You become aware that "this is a dream" while you are dreaming.. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Someone here

[Someone here]

On 10/8/2020 at 8:53 PM, Gesundheit said:

Health is a highly subjective matter, especially when it comes to psychology. Who's to say whether a psychopath is mentally ill or just being authentic, and why is authenticity favored over mental illness? Who's to say whether authenticity is a good thing or not? And who's to say whether we should be doing good things or not? In the end, it becomes obvious that all categories must collapse and that none of them is actually true. But we're egos and like to set things the way we like, which is most likely, in accordance to our egoic needs. We're all just egos fighting to spread each one's own narrative. We like life customized to fit us perfectly.

I agree. 

[Someone here]

@electroBeam interesting 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Someone here

[Someone here]

On 10/8/2020 at 9:00 PM, Nahm said:

If absolute is not measurable, is ‘not your experience’ a measurement?  How is that distinguished from a ‘mental fabrication’?

Is there is nonexistence? Any direct experience of nonexistence?  What’s ‘exist’ relative, to? 

 

To the first question.. There can't be a statement made about an absolute something.. We can't speak the absolute.. We can't say this is absolutely the case or this is not absolutely the case.. As soon as we open our mouth.. We are In the relative domain.

To the second question.. Non-existence is a quality.. It's not a realm or a place.. For example you see the sun it exists for you.. Once it disappeared.. It's nonexistent for you. 

So the sun we can say it exists or it doesn't exist. The absolute can't be said to exist or doesn't exist. Because these are relative and changeful. The absolute is beyond existence or non-existence. 

[Nahm]

@Someone here

Is non existence a thought about not existing, or a reference to direct experience of non existence? 

And if interested, how does that relate to the op / topic?

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Someone here

Is non existence a thought about not existing, or a reference to direct experience of non existence? 

And if interested, how does that relate to the op / topic?

Yeah it's more of a  thought. 

How does this relate to op?   

Idk yet ?

[Nahm]

18 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Yeah it's more of a  thought. 

Is there an actuality of nonexistence? 

Not the word, but what it points to.

[Gesundheit]

28 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Someone here

Is non existence a thought about not existing, or a reference to direct experience of non existence? 

It could be both. Non-existence refers to a thought that does not refer to a certain direct experience (i.e. absence of a certain phenomenon), and rather refers to any other direct experience (phenomenon) except that one. In other words, non-existence refers to the direct experience of a something else.

[Someone here]

11 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Is there an actuality of nonexistence? 

Not the word, but what it points to.

It's really tricky.. It doesn't make sense to say non-existence exists. Because if it exists.. Then it's existence and not non-existence.  But the word is here for a reason. It can only be used relatively. As I said.. You see the sun.. It exists.. Then it dissappears..you can say it's nonexistent. So there is a relative nonexistent.  Ofcourse that exists as  a thought. So yeah there is no actuality to non-existence in that sense. 

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

It could be both. Non-existence refers to a thought that does not refer to a certain direct experience (i.e. absence of a certain phenomenon), and rather refers to any other direct experience (phenomenon) except that one. In other words, non-existence refers to the direct experience of a something else.

If nonexistence refers to thought, thought doesn’t exist. 

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

It's really tricky.. It doesn't make sense to say non-existence exists. Because if it exists.. Then it's existence and not non-existence. But the word is here for a reason. It can only be used relatively.

What reason?

What is it’s usage relative to? 

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

As I said.. You see the sun.. It exists.. Then it dissappears..you can say it's nonexistent. So there is a relative nonexistent.  Ofcourse that exists as  a thought. So yeah there is no actuality to non-existence in that sense. 

If the sun is said to exist at all, existence is a relative property attributed to the sun. Does existence have an opposite? Can existence be relative?

Does appearance and disappearance determine existence? Does existence appear & disappear?  Wouldn’t that be saying existence is relative to appearance?   

[Gesundheit]

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

It's really tricky.. It doesn't make sense to say non-existence exists. Because if it exists.. Then it's existence and not non-existence.  But the word is here for a reason. It can only be used relatively. As I said.. You see the sun.. It exists.. Then it dissappears..you can say it's nonexistent. So there is a relative nonexistent.  Ofcourse that exists as  a thought. So yeah there is no actuality to non-existence in that sense. 

How about changing this absolute vs relative narrative?

Instead, I suggest that we shift the game and use language as our focal point and instead of categorizing things as existing or not existing (cuz it's a pointless game), we can categorize statements as true or false. Not only it resolves the absolute vs relative confusion, but it's also much easier and more effective in communication. For example, we can say that "the sun exists" is a true statement, of course here we have to admit (or ignore) the fact that we're implying relativity, that the sun's existence is actually dependent upon the observer, etc... But to say that "the sun does not exist", this is what we can say is a false statement because it contradicts direct experience. What do you think?

6 hours ago, Nahm said:

If nonexistence refers to thought, thought doesn’t exist.

I think you're getting lost in the semantics. Read above if interested.

[Nahm]

@Gesundheit

Sun is a thought, a label. The ‘sun’ is existence.