Are Zen and Advaita Vedanta atheist?

[Nak Khid]

Are  Zen and Advaita Vedanta atheist? 

[lmfao]

My mind has categorised two conventional ways to view atheism. You can look at what the definition is for it literally, or you can look at the school of thought and traditions around it. So either you can take atheism to be

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Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the existence of deities.Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist.

or choice number 2, you think about the intellectuals and public figures who've created an identity and ego around the label "atheist". The likes of Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens falling into this category. This whole shtick . I'm sure there's a vast tradition to atheism outside the the people I just mentioned which could better define what this category precisely represents, but that is all particular details that's irrelevant to this work. 

The most robust formulation of atheism: Atheism is just a negation of dogmatic religion. It is willingly entering the space of not knowing. 
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Advaita Vedanta as a tradition has some "theistic" tendencies you could say. But thinking about that in linear terms is irrelevant to the practices and waking up. 
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The main point however. Atheism or theism, the way the typical person phrases or thinks about this just misses the point of zen and these practices.  If there is a resolution to these questions and the unsatisfied mind that generates them, you aren't gonna find it in some scholarly discussion about it. 
 

Edited June 7, 2020 by lmfao

[Nak Khid]

Sometimes  a difference raised between belief in a personal gods or belief in impersonal god/s

Also, looking at  a given tradition, they might answer a question regarding god or deities if asked but depending on the tradition they may not talk about god/s in their everyday teachings.   To others it is central 

 

[legendary]

 

[remember]

with religion i‘d stay in the field of classical definition - atheism includes some major groups like pantheism and agnosticism.

zen is def not atheistic as it is an emergent of buddhism and maybe shinto or tao if you include the source of zen being in china and not in japan including zen developing differently in korea and japan. but zen also includes shrines and prayer to higher beings.

advaita vedanta is probably closer to atheism due to having a more philosophical approach. can’t say much about it as i don’t know a lot about it. 

of course the nature of both is seemingly more atheistic as both are more reductionistic - more so since western philosophy leans more on eastern philosophy.

which does not mean that they are atheistic, maybe it means more that philosophy has become more theistic.

Edited June 7, 2020 by remember

[Nak Khid]

Quote

The Role of Gods and Deities in Buddhism
Are there Gods, or aren't there?

https://www.learnreligions.com/gods-in-buddhism-449762

What did the Buddha say about him (God) ? Well, nothing that I know of. It's possible the Buddha was never exposed to monotheism as we know it. The concept of God as the one and only supreme being, and not just one god among many, was just coming into acceptance among Jewish scholars about the time the Buddha was born. This God concept may not have ever reached him.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the God of monotheism, as commonly understood, can be dropped seamlessly into Buddhism. Frankly, in Buddhism, God has nothing to do.

 

[mandyjw]

Atheists say I exist while God does not.  So that's definitely not the message of zen or advaita. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by mandyjw

[Nak Khid]

30 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Atheists say I exist while God does not.  So that's definitely not the message of zen or advaita. 

I disagree,
Belief that oneself exists or statements referring to "I" 
are not part of the definition of atheism.   

 

[mandyjw]

11 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

I disagree,
Belief that oneself exists or statements referring to "I" 
are not part of the definition of atheism.   

Well... I've never met a self-proclaimed atheist, who didn't think they were an atheist. 

Maybe atheism is pure in itself, but then, how would it exist if no one held it as a belief system. Dunno. Head scratcher. 

[Inliytened1]

@mandyjw nice!

[Inliytened1]

@Nak Khid who cares.  You are still lost in traditions, beliefs, and religions.  Have you bothered to sit down and do self inquiry?   

[Nak Khid]

4 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Nak Khid who cares.  You are still lost in beliefs and religions.  Have you bothered to sit down and so self inquiry?   

When I sit down and meditate I don't make inquires.  Such things block awareness 

[Inliytened1]

17 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

When I sit down and meditate I don't make inquires.  Such things block awareness 

You are awareness.

[Nak Khid]

16 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Well... I've never met a self-proclaimed atheist, who didn't think they were an atheist. 

Maybe atheism is pure in itself, but then, how would it exist if no one held it as a belief system. Dunno. Head scratcher. 

Zen and Advaita Vedanta practitioners don't proclaim atheism

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atheism
Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

So to  lack a belief in the existence of a god or gods one is not required to proclaim they are an "atheist". 

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

Atheists say I exist while God does not.  

Jews, Christians, Muslims, they all say they exist and believe in God at the same time.  The idea that  God exists but oneself does not is not common. 
 

Unlike Buddhism, but like Jainism, all Vedanta sub-schools consider the existence of Atman (real self, soul) as self-evident. The Vedanta tradition posits the concept of Brahman as the eternal, unchanging metaphysical reality of the universe. The various sub-schools of Vedanta have different views on the relation between Atman and Brahman. The Advaita school of Vedanta considers them to be identical.

A drop merging in the Ocean, an analogy for the Atman merging into the Brahman

Advaita Vedanta asserts that gaining the knowledge of one's true self or Atman is the only way to liberation.Along with self-knowledge, it teaches that moksha can be achieved by the correct understanding of one's true identity as Ātman, the eternal and unchanging witness consciousness, and the identity of Ātman and Brahman as one, Brahman being the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe

[Nak Khid]

Zen and Advaita Vedanta may not be  self-proclaiming atheists but they are nondual traditions and some might consider them atheist by default.  Buddhism often does not address the question of if a god exists or not.   The traditions that are oriented toward God mention it frequently.  It is a focal point

   Tibetan Buddhism is more influenced by Hindu deities  but in the article I posted earlier these deities are discussed in terms of to what extent they are regarded as real beings  and to what extent they symbolize principles and to what extent syncretism with native pre-Buddhist Tibetan religion.
It is not known if  Buddha was exposed to "one God" monotheism or only the polytheism common to his locale 

Bhakti Hinduism on the other hand Bhakti refers to devotion, participation in and the love of a personal god or a representational god by a devotee.   

I welcome anyone who has further comment or information 

 

 

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Nak Khid said:

Zen and Advaita Vedanta practitioners don't proclaim atheism

So to  lack a belief in the existence of a god or gods one is not required to proclaim they are an "atheist". 

 

Your twisting words.  They believe in the one real Self.  What do you think that is? What are you saying here...

1 hour ago, Nak Khid said:

. 

Jews, Christians, Muslims, they all say they exist and believe in God at the same time.  The idea that  God exists but oneself does not is not common. 
 

 

Again twisting words.  

[Nak Khid]

3 hours ago, legendary said:

 

It is a thought provoking video but I'm  I'm not sure If I agree.  He is a good storyteller 

Another thing I noticed is that he equated atheists to leftists 

[Inliytened1]

14 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

Zen and Advaita Vedanta may not be  self-proclaiming atheists but they are nondual traditions and some might consider them atheist by default.  Buddhism often does not address the question of if a god exists or not.   The traditions that are oriented toward God mention it frequently.  It is a focal point

   Tibetan Buddhism is more influenced by Hindu deities  but in the article I posted earlier these deities are discussed in terms of to what extent they are regarded as real beings  and to what extent they symbolize principles and to what extent syncretism with native pre-Buddhist Tibetan religion.
It is not known if  Buddha was exposed to "one God" monotheism or only the polytheism common to his locale 

Bhakti Hinduism on the other hand Bhakti refers to devotion, participation in and the love of a personal god or a representational god by a devotee.   

I welcome anyone who has further comment or information 

 

 

God exists.  Non-dual traditions go back to Oneness of the Self.  It is God.  Remember they are thousands of years old.  But even back then they were aware of God.  Whether they named it as God or went deeper into the nature of reality is another matter.

[VeganAwake]

What's an atheist? And apparent separate individual that doesn't believe in a higher source?

So what does a higher source mean?

Is it something outside of the minds limited understanding... if it is how can a mind understand it.

Higher Source or God may be so Advanced it doesn't have an agenda, it doesn't have a requirement ...maybe it just is...

Is God a thought within the thought of an apparent separate individual that hopes there's something more to existence than this life and it's apparent short time here.

Is God completely unknowable and unfathomable?

Is God an illusion or a thought created by Deep cultural conditioning?

Is God the infinite energy or unlimited pure potentiality?

Is God a Dream Within A Dream Within A Dream within Infinity.

If the source that creates infinite ideas or thoughts about what God is was recognized to be illusory where does that leave us.

Row row row your boat gently down the stream merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream.

The Trap is trying to know...

The freedom lies in Unknowing...❤

Don't believe anything that was said here... find out!!

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by VeganAwake

[Nak Khid]

1 hour ago, Nak Khid said:

Zen and Advaita Vedanta practitioners don't proclaim atheism

So to  lack a belief in the existence of a god or gods one is not required to proclaim they are an "atheist". 

 

 

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

Your twisting words.  They believe in the one real Self.  What do you think that is? What are you saying here...

Thats what she said.

No. I am not twisting anything.  The topic is God, Zen and Advaita Vedanta your particular interpretation of what God means. 
Traditional Zen practitioners do not speak about God. 

The Buddha taught a doctrine called anatta, which is often defined as "no-self," or the teaching that the sense of being a permanent, autonomous self is an illusion. This does not fit our ordinary experience. Am I not me? If not, who is reading this article right now? The Buddha discouraged his disciples from speculating about the self. For example, in the Sabbasava Sutta (Pali Sutta-pitaka, Majjhima Nikaya 2) he advised us not to ponder certain questions, such as "Am I? Am I not?" because this would lead to six kinds of wrong views:

1. I have a self.

2.  I have no self.

3. By means of a self I perceive self.

4. By means of a self I perceive not-self.

5. By means of not-self I perceive self.

6. The self of mine that knows is everlasting and will stay as it is forever.