Question on Actuality & Visualization

[CVKBT]

When doing visualization exercises, am I in a cross-section between Concept and Actuality?
For example Kriya Pranayama: you visualize energy going up and down your spine as you breath. 
The concept would be the Pranayama technique, which you project onto reality (here, the present moment you find yourself in). You visualize so intensely, that it actually becomes a reality and you literally feel the energy in your spine. At this point, we would be at Actuality, right? Because now, it isn't just a concept, but something you can observe and actually feel in the present moment. It becomes something actual. It is an experience happening.

By visualizing, are we shifting from Concept to Actuality? Making the concept something real and actual? Is there a mistake in my thinking?

I ask this, because when I first started doing Pranayama techniques, I couldn't feel anything. I needed almost half a year of visualization exercises to get a more or less solid feeling of Prana in my spine. The concept of Pranayamas didn't translate to actuality at first. But now I'm not even visualizing anymore, I just feel it. Hence the question.

Thank you for all answers

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, CVKBT said:

When doing visualization exercises, am I in a cross-section between Concept and Actuality?
For example Kriya Pranayama: you visualize energy going up and down your spine as you breath. 
The concept would be the Pranayama technique, which you project onto reality (here, the present moment you find yourself in). You visualize so intensely, that it actually becomes a reality and you literally feel the energy in your spine. At this point, we would be at Actuality, right? Because now, it isn't just a concept, but something you can observe and actually feel in the present moment. It becomes something actual. It is an experience happening.

By visualizing, are we shifting from Concept to Actuality? Making the concept something real and actual? Is there a mistake in my thinking?

I ask this, because when I first started doing Pranayama techniques, I couldn't feel anything. I needed almost half a year of visualization exercises to get a more or less solid feeling of Prana in my spine. The concept of Pranayamas didn't translate to actuality at first. But now I'm not even visualizing anymore, I just feel it. Hence the question.

Thank you for all answers

I don't find these boundaries useful as a way of looking at these practices. Conceptual vs Actual, imaginary vs real.

 

As you visualize, simply be. Be the energy, be the love, be whatever you want. Is it not interesting how you are saying "imagination is not actuality!" simply because it is less permanent?

[CVKBT]

Of course, while doing Yoga I'm not poundering these questions. They just came up after watching Leo's video on Actuality.

 

10 hours ago, Scholar said:

Is it not interesting how you are saying "imagination is not actuality!" simply because it is less permanent?

Do I understand correctly, that conscious imagination/visualization is also actuality? That would make sense for me, since there is an awareness watching within the imagination.

Edited April 7, 2020 by CVKBT

[Scholar]

7 minutes ago, CVKBT said:

Of course, while doing Yoga I'm not poundering these questions. They just came up after watching Leo's video on Actuality. ^^

 

Do I understand correctly, that conscious imagination/visualization is also actuality? That would make sense for me, since there is an awareness watching within the imagination.

This is something you will have to observe yourself. Once you will see clearly, there will be no question anymore.

[mandyjw]

I've been wondering about this too. Maybe it's more about how the visualization feels, and becoming aware of or sensitive to that feeling.

Is a visualization a thought or a feeling? Do colors have feelings attached? Yes. Do images? Does art make us feel? If we give it our attention and open to the feeling. What was a work of art before it was manifested? What is it after it's manifested? Has it changed? 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, CVKBT said:

You visualize so intensely, that it actually becomes a reality and you literally feel the energy in your spine. At this point, we would be at Actuality, right?

Yes!

You are literally imagining the new reality you want. Basic LoA.

You are using the power of imagination to drill a portal to God. Many spiritual techniques rely on this mechanism without being explicit about it. That's how prayer works, for example. If you pray long and hard enough to Jesus, he can manifest himself to you. Because in fact Jesus is just a facet of your own mind. This is why some people worship Jesus, and it works for them. Other people worship an elephant man, and it works for them. Other people worship the devil, and it works for them. You can even worship Leo and one day I will appear to you and guide you to God. It doesn't matter what specific form your worship.

This is why an infinite number of different religions can exist. The details of the imagery are largely irrelevant, as long as you take it seriously.

The whole point is to blur the materialist boundary between "real" vs imaginary. This boundary itself is imaginary! The more you can blur this boundary, the more powerful you can be at manifesting and manipulating reality. This how yogis develop supernatural abilities/siddhis. They train up their imagination skills.

[mandyjw]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes!

You are literally imagining the new reality you want. Basic LoA.

You are using the power of imagination to drill a portal to God. Many spiritual techniques rely on this mechanism without being explicit about it. That's how prayer works, for example. If you pray long and hard enough to Jesus, he can manifest himself to you. Because in fact Jesus is just a facet of your own mind. This is why some people worship Jesus, and it works for them. Other people worship an elephant man, and it works for them. Other people worship the devil, and it works for them. You can even worship Leo and one day I will appear to you and guide you to God. It doesn't matter what specific form your worship.

This is why an infinite number of different religions can exist. The details of the imagery are largely irrelevant, as long as you take it seriously.

There's also a backwards effect of visualization where things are revealed or shown to you and seem to be surprises or revelations. Meaning before symbol or symbol before meaning, time is not linear which is why it can occur both ways. 

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes!

You are literally imagining the new reality you want. Basic LoA.

You are using the power of imagination to drill a portal to God. Many spiritual techniques rely on this mechanism without being explicit about it. That's how prayer works, for example. If you pray long and hard enough to Jesus, he can manifest himself to you. Because in fact Jesus is just a facet of your own mind. This is why some people worship Jesus, and it works for them. Other people worship an elephant man, and it works for them. Other people worship the devil, and it works for them. You can even worship Leo and one day I will appear to you and guide you to God. It doesn't matter what specific form your worship.

This is why an infinite number of different religions can exist. The details of the imagery are largely irrelevant, as long as you take it seriously.

The whole point is to blur the materialist boundary between "real" vs imaginary. This boundary itself is imaginary! The more you can blur this boundary, the more powerful you can be at manifesting and manipulating reality. This how yogis develop supernatural abilities/siddhis. They train up their imagination skills.

How have you confirmed that yogis have supernatural abilities? Is there any convincing evidence to show us this is true without directly experiencing it?

[Edan]

11 hours ago, CVKBT said:

I needed almost half a year of visualization exercises to get a more or less solid feeling of Prana in my spine.

Haha tonight when you go to sleep, try practicing prana yama in the dream. I did it you will feel it in 3 seconds. it's like in regular life but X10000 faster. I think it can give you a taste of how it works in regular waking life. I am an enlightened master in dreamland lol?

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Scholar said:

How have you confirmed that yogis have supernatural abilities? Is there any convincing evidence to show us this is true without directly experiencing it?

It's obvious to me at this point.

Can I prove it to you? No.

[Javfly33]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes!

You are literally imagining the new reality you want. Basic LoA.

You are using the power of imagination to drill a portal to God. Many spiritual techniques rely on this mechanism without being explicit about it. That's how prayer works, for example. If you pray long and hard enough to Jesus, he can manifest himself to you. Because in fact Jesus is just a facet of your own mind. This is why some people worship Jesus, and it works for them. Other people worship an elephant man, and it works for them. Other people worship the devil, and it works for them. You can even worship Leo and one day I will appear to you and guide you to God. It doesn't matter what specific form your worship.

This is why an infinite number of different religions can exist. The details of the imagery are largely irrelevant, as long as you take it seriously.

The whole point is to blur the materialist boundary between "real" vs imaginary. This boundary itself is imaginary! The more you can blur this boundary, the more powerful you can be at manifesting and manipulating reality. This how yogis develop supernatural abilities/siddhis. They train up their imagination skills.

@Leo Gura Recently I´ve wondered how the placebo effect relates with the fact of reality being imaginary.

Like, everything can be a placebo, but only if reality imagines x object as such. For example, if I am correct as you have said, Chakras are imagined as a way to elevate an energy that induces an awakening. But instead of Chakras they could have been any other thing, really. 

So really is not the person´s belief that actually makes the placebo, but literally reality itself.

Here´s what I am really curious about: (again, Let´s take the example of Chakras) If there´s nobody there to belief in the placebo, (let´s say that everybody that is doing yoga suddenly turns into an extreme rationalist skeptic) would the "placebo" still be real? Would reality still "imagine" the placebo and if the last openminded person comes and focus on Chakras, they would still be a way to elevate the energy and awaken?

Because if that would work, then tomorrow I can start believing 100% that to awaken I must recite a weird mantra I invented for myself, and then i will awaken. But how then that is different from me imagining that i will have 1 million dollars in my front yard waiting for me tomorrow? (because we know this last thing wouldn´t work)

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Javfly33

[Leo Gura]

@Javfly33 It's much more complex than that. Imagination has many layers to it and your present state of consciousness does not give you access to the deepest layers. Those layers which you don't have access to you call "physical reality". As you gain more access "physical reality" will start to become more and more fluid, less solid, less "real".

[remember]

@Javfly33 chakras are not a placebo. like accupuncture is not a placebo - a placebo is an empty shell. a placebo is a bluff imagination without phenomenon. there are people who have painful kundalini awakening without ever having done chakra work. most people in western society are stuck in one chakra that’s why. even rationality is relative to the sum of its ratio. you can’t solve a problem by using what you have created it with.

Edited April 8, 2020 by remember

[CVKBT]

Thank you @Scholar @Leo Gura for shedding light on this!

 

@Edan Holy shit, this sounds like an interesting experiment. Even though pulling Prana is not a concern for me anymore, I'll try it, since I had one super intense meditation on the spine and chakras with Sadhguru in my dreams. Even though I'm usually super unconscious in my dreams, once the meditation started, I had the same "wakefulness" state as in a normal meditation. I never fell so quick and deep in a trance state before. I suck at lucid dreaming, but I'll definitely try it! Thank you for your suggestion.

[herghly]

@Leo Gura How do we train our imagination?