Rape and India

[Gnosis]

 

No one said it was justified or just.

We can all agree on that.

 

I'm trying to point to a much deeper and more fundamental issue and insight.

Since it occurred to me that no one has thus far in this discussion.

 

Either way, I hope you all can come to a conclusion in this discussion wherein you find peace and understanding.

As this issue won't be solved through a few forum posts.

 

I've already illustrated that this issue will fundamentally resolve itself with enough development.

All other solutions is essentially beating around the bush.

 

Even Awakening is understood differently at each of the cognitive developmental stages.

It's understood differently at Blue, Orange, Green, Yellow, Turquoise, and Coral.

 

You can expect that different behaviors arise at different stages when fueled by the same underlying unconscious tendencies.

And even those underlying unconscious tendencies themselves to change with enough time and development.

[Gnosis]

An ape in a suit is still an ape.

[remember]

Just now, Gnosis said:

An ape in a suit is still an ape.

??

[Harikrishnan]

Ok so let me speak my mind. In India women are there own enemies. When preety India says all women join together and are fighting against atrocities against women that is not ground reality imo. Most Women are not even brothering about this things rather than changing dp of social media when a incident like rape occuars. Indian Women mind are filled with social customs, religious morality that makes them see themselves as victims. 1000years of conditioning is there and it is not gonna change anytime soon. 

There is a temple in kerala called Sabarimala where deity is Ayappa(he is a brahmachari) and mensurating women from age of it starts to stop where not given permission to enter. And Supreme court rejected it and passed a rule where any women at whatever age can enter. Citing traditional custom of that temple was against women. And what happened next is most funniest thing some feminist women here rejoiced the Supreme court rule and entered temple.(some feminist women went silent.) Seeing this the religious women started protest against new rule, there where road picketting 1000' s of women picketed road, hartals where there done by religious women saying No to temple entry ? and now govt has decided to stop women from entering coz of troubles and Supreme court is reviewing all situation

Edited March 10, 2020 by Harikrishnan

[remember]

@Harikrishnan i flew over an article swiftly the other day, where a feminist wrote - male are not your enimy, this was about not putting male into one group but ignorant people. 

i have the problem here that i don’t know exactly where to put you, as you don’t take any stand on ignorant male. could be a self justification trap. you see we don’t want to be put into that hoard of the perpetrators, what then sometimes makes us one.

 

also keep in mind that religion is the last to change usually. so this example is about completely other values - women try to protect the holiness of a place which is entitled to men. but men can’t protect the holiness of a womans body?

Edited March 10, 2020 by remember

[Preety_India]

9 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Nobody is entitled to a safe world from universal perspective! The reality is that this is a jungle, where we're all vulnerable to each other. The rules of the jungle are : Everyones out for their own. Now I may care about your safety individually, but this doesn't change the rules of the jungle! You have 2 options : either wait for the world to make it better, or initiate it yourself.

Safety is not an entitlement or a privilege. It's a right. 

I understand that crime can't be reduced to a complete zero. 

But it can be definitely be prevented the way it is prevented in western countries by a law enforcement trained and designed to provide protection to citizens and also justice when a crime happens. 

Most rape cases in India don't reach conviction because the system is not interested in convicting the rapist. It protects them instead of protecting the victims. This is because it's a male dominated society that cares more about men than women. 

Women are considered valueless in such societies and therefore their concerns are not heard. 

It's necessary for the system to change and not simply let it remain stagnant by calling it a jungle. 

It's important to take action. Feminist organizations are already protesting for the government to take strict action. But we also need the support of men. Men cannot simply sit passive and give excuses. Because that way the problem stagnates.

Using statements like "this is a jungle" or "men will be men, suck it up" will not work towards a resolution. 

We need few things 

• Change in the mentality of men, they need to learn to start respecting women. Fathers need to teach their sons to respect the sister, mother, daughter and other women. 
• The Indian man is raised with the thinking that he is superior to any woman. His friends also tell him that. Women are expected to worship men. This thinking needs to change. A woman is not a slave or cattle. She is also a human being with equal rights and she is not under his control. He has no right on her. She is free. 
• The government is done great with respect to stopping other atrocities which is a good thing. Here also the government can do a wonderful job by making sure that rape convictions are higher, rapists are captured and imprisoned and victims get fast track justice. Currently the conviction rates are very low because of a very biased system. Convicts are even let go. There is nothing like registered sex offender list like it exists in the United States. Such things are important to keep the convicts and offenders away from society and controls potential crimes
• Women should be allowed greater participation in the government. 
• There should be special panels to hear concerns of women. 
• Real time action is needed not just fake promises and just talk. 
• There should be patrolling by the police in places which are high risk. Patrolling is always seen in advanced first world countries like the USA. Here the police is not bothered to do their job because they are not sufficiently paid or trained or armed to carry out their jobs. 
• Men should defend women in public spaces. This will give the message to a potential rapist that their behavior will not be tolerated and that the society is protective of women and children. This message will weaken them. 
• A woman can use self defense and use it as a last resort however this is always risky 
• Government should allow women to carry self defense weapons but this is always debatable. Because a woman can also use it against an innocent man so I'm not sure if this option is viable. 
• Education of men on treatment of women. Men in India need a real education on how to treat women. This training should happen at schools and special programs to sensitize men and make them more understanding and empathetic towards women. 
• Victim blaming and victim shaming should be objected and protested. Women are already doing this. But men should join them too. 
• Empowering women to become independent so poor class women don't have to rely on abusive husbands and no longer have to tolerate abuse to survive. 
• Work place harassment should be addressed and penalties should be given to those who try to hamper a woman's progress or safety by threats or blackmail. 
• Patrolling in busses. This can go a long way. Just having an officer even occasionally on a bus transportation or street can help a lot. The woman simply has to report on spot harassment. And the guy can be told to leave or taken into custody for groping her. This can definitely reduce transport harassment. 
• Witness protection programs for women and their families who testify because often women and and families are silenced by the criminals with death threats and with no protection these threats are actually carried out with impunity. 
• Street harassment also needs on site patrolling. 
• Educating Indian men on dating and relationships. Making them understand that rejection is acceptable and that a woman has the right to reject and she does not have to die for it 
• Acid attacks should get death penalty because the suffering of the victim is severe in such cases
• The general misogyny needs to be addressed by both women and men. Men should support feminists in their effort to bring equality for basic rights instead of mocking, ridiculing or opposing them. 

 

 

 

[Preety_India]

@Harikrishnan

Self justification is very easy since you are a male. Nobody is targeting every Indian male. 

There are good men in India. But please don't use a woman's behavior to justify rape. It's a crime that needs punishment 

The focus should be more on male behavior and how that can be tackled rather than pointing fingers at women. 

And I find it ridiculous that you say that Indian women see themselves as victim. Tell that to a rape victim please. 

When a crime is committed against a person and the person doesn't get justice, he or she is a victim. Period. 

 

[Preety_India]

@Annoynymous

I'm very grateful that you opened the thread about a very difficult and controversial aspect of India. 

It helps to create awareness. 

However I have exhausted myself giving my opinions on this thread. 

Some people called me brave. Some people (from my own country) called me 'playing victim.' 

 

As you can clearly see this difference in perspectives and this alone tells how difficult it is for Indian women to stand up against rape without being demonized or bashed. 

When a woman wants better laws and safety she is not acting entitled or playing victim. 

 

Anyway I retire from this thread. I said whatever I had to so I don't feel the need to say more on this thread. 

[remember]

21 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Safety is not an entitlement or a privilege. It's a right. 

I understand that crime can't be reduced to a complete zero. 

But it can be definitely be prevented the way it is prevented in western countries by a law enforcement trained and designed to provide protection to citizens and also justice when a crime happens. 

Most rape cases in India don't reach conviction because the system is not interested in convicting the rapist. It protects them instead of protecting the victims. This is because it's a male dominated society that cares more about men than women. 

Women are considered valueless in such societies and therefore their concerns are not heard. 

It's necessary for the system to change and not simply let it remain stagnant by calling it a jungle. 

It's important to take action. Feminist organizations are already protesting for the government to take strict action. But we also need the support of men. Men cannot simply sit passive and give excuses. Because that way the problem stagnates.

Using statements like "this is a jungle" or "men will be men, suck it up" will not work towards a resolution. 

We need few things 

• Change in the mentality of men, they need to learn to start respecting women. Fathers need to teach their sons to respect the sister, mother, daughter and other women. 
• The Indian man is raised with the thinking that he is superior to any woman. His friends also tell him that. Women are expected to worship men. This thinking needs to change. A woman is not a slave or cattle. She is also a human being with equal rights and she is not under his control. He has no right on her. She is free. 
• The government is done great with respect to stopping other atrocities which is a good thing. Here also the government can do a wonderful job by making sure that rape convictions are higher, rapists are captured and imprisoned and victims get fast track justice. Currently the conviction rates are very low because of a very biased system. Convicts are even let go. There is nothing like registered sex offender list like it exists in the United States. Such things are important to keep the convicts and offenders away from society and controls potential crimes
• Women should be allowed greater participation in the government. 
• There should be special panels to hear concerns of women. 
• Real time action is needed not just fake promises and just talk. 
• There should be patrolling by the police in places which are high risk. Patrolling is always seen in advanced first world countries like the USA. Here the police is not bothered to do their job because they are not sufficiently paid or trained or armed to carry out their jobs. 
• Men should defend women in public spaces. This will give the message to a potential rapist that their behavior will not be tolerated and that the society is protective of women and children. This message will weaken them. 
• A woman can use self defense and use it as a last resort however this is always risky 
• Government should allow women to carry self defense weapons but this is always debatable. Because a woman can also use it against an innocent man so I'm not sure if this option is viable. 
• Education of men on treatment of women. Men in India need a real education on how to treat women. This training should happen at schools and special programs to sensitize men and make them more understanding and empathetic towards women. 
• Victim blaming and victim shaming should be objected and protested. Women are already doing this. But men should join them too. 
• Empowering women to become independent so poor class women don't have to rely on abusive husbands and no longer have to tolerate abuse to survive. 
• Work place harassment should be addressed and penalties should be given to those who try to hamper a woman's progress or safety by threats or blackmail. 
• Patrolling in busses. This can go a long way. Just having an officer even occasionally on a bus transportation or street can help a lot. The woman simply has to report on spot harassment. And the guy can be told to leave or taken into custody for groping her. This can definitely reduce transport harassment. 
• Witness protection programs for women and their families who testify because often women and and families are silenced by the criminals with death threats and with no protection these threats are actually carried out with impunity. 
• Street harassment also needs on site patrolling. 
• Educating Indian men on dating and relationships. Making them understand that rejection is acceptable and that a woman has the right to reject and she does not have to die for it 
• Acid attacks should get death penalty because the suffering of the victim is severe in such cases
• The general misogyny needs to be addressed by both women and men. Men should support feminists in their effort to bring equality for basic rights instead of mocking, ridiculing or opposing them. 

 

 

 

this is a great list - it’s very rational and goal orientated. i think even the guys could agree on this, as they probably also are sick of being victim to crime. i remember in one situation it was even a couple who went victim - imagining the girl you date would get victim, or the sister, or mother, what would guys do? i think it’s a list which would deserve to be discussed openly in any country where horrific crimes happen. and they must be discussed. i think the dating education would be also fun for men even, because they would feel far less helpless.

[Preety_India]

@remember

Thank you for your support lady. 

Hehehe I thought you were a guy for so long. Sorry about that 

You're an awesome woman. 

 

 

 

[remember]

@Preety_India you, too! ?

and thank you so much for your detailed contribution to this thread, a lot of effort! your writing is always very reflected, i learned a lot about the situation and also realized some biases i have and how to resolve them.

thanks to the guys, too. of course we get a little defensive with topics like this. we are not your enemies.

Edited March 10, 2020 by remember

[Harikrishnan]

56 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@Harikrishnan

Self justification is very easy since you are a male. Nobody is targeting every Indian male. 

There are good men in India. But please don't use a woman's behavior to justify rape. It's a crime that needs punishment 

The focus should be more on male behavior and how that can be tackled rather than pointing fingers at women. 

And I find it ridiculous that you say that Indian women see themselves as victim. Tell that to a rape victim please. 

When a crime is committed against a person and the person doesn't get justice, he or she is a victim. Period. 

 

I am really curious to know where in my post did all the things you pointed about me came from? 

[Preety_India]

@Gnosis

I apologize if I said anything that could have offended you. 

You have the best interests of women in mind and I accept that. My opinions could have been out of context and a bit defensive and in the heat of the moment given the sensitive nature of the topic. 

Once again I apologize. 

 

 

[Preety_India]

@Harikrishnan please reread your post. There is a lot of blaming in it or at least it appears that way. 

You have also explicitly stated that women have victim mentality. That word is very insensitive in the context of rape 

 

 

[Parththakkar12]

We Indians really value our moral characters. Therefore if someone triggers shame in us, we will perceive it as a threat to our character and respond defensively/aggressively with moral indignation! We need to learn to give each other the benefit of doubt in such conversations, that it's all well-intentioned.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[remember]

18 minutes ago, Harikrishnan said:

I am really curious to know where in my post did all the things you pointed about me came from? 

also think about how loaded the topic is for us. it always plays into the posts. instead of getting defensive you could also make your position about male behavior clear you are not contented about. we often see the confrontation as more actual than what the threat of the dynamic is about - which plays into the separation dynamic. you probably are not part of the people who think women are responsible for being attacked by men or are you? then do you count yourself to the group of these people or do you have an opposition towards their behavior? sometimes women feel more safe if you make clear that you don’t belong to these kind of men, and then it’s possible to talk about real equality without playing into fear dynamics which will play out in these kinds of conversations.

Edited March 10, 2020 by remember

[Harikrishnan]

1 hour ago, Harikrishnan said:

Ok so let me speak my mind. In India women are there own enemies. When preety India says all women join together and are fighting against atrocities against women that is not ground reality imo.Most Women are not even brothering about this things rather than changing dp of social media when a incident like rape occuars.

what i mean here is women should come more infront when a women somewhere in India is raped, despite of she being a north indian or south indian women should come forward and raise voice everywhere. But i dont see that i only see changing dp, yes that is a good way to show support but that doesnt make much change imo.

 

Indian Women mind are filled with social customs, religious morality that makes them see themselves as victims. 1000years of conditioning is there and it is not gonna change anytime soon.

i am not blaming women here i am blaming social and religious custom that is responsible. See in India only 1% percent of total rape cases is  reported why do u think that is the case why is a women who is raped not reporting and filing a case?  To me its social religious custom.

There is a temple in kerala called Sabarimala where deity is Ayappa(he is a brahmachari) and mensurating women from age of it starts to stop where not given permission to enter. And Supreme court rejected it and passed a rule where any women at whatever age can enter. Citing traditional custom of that temple was against women. And what happened next is most funniest thing some feminist women here rejoiced the Supreme court rule and entered temple.(some feminist women went silent.) Seeing this the religious women started protest against new rule, there where road picketting 1000' s of women picketed road, hartals where there done by religious women saying No to temple entry ? and now govt has decided to stop women from entering coz of troubles and Supreme court is reviewing all situation

Now this has nothing to do with rape or anything but this issue is regarding integrity of women. And am fool that i posted it here cause you wont understand the situation of this without knowing history of what our women been through.

 

[Annoynymous]

@Harikrishnan i think you made a legit point. Women who became zombie (willingly and unwillingly) followers of the current social structure, just keeps their mouth shut even when atrocious crime happens against other women.

[remember]

@Harikrishnan it’s still difficult to make the difference without emotional reassurance sometimes. don’t expect a topic like that to be only rationally discussed. written language also misses the presence of a person who gives other signs like smiles.

i guess we got it now, thanks. but also adress guys if you realize they think backwardly you have more influence than we have. how sad it sounds.

Edited March 10, 2020 by remember

[Harikrishnan]

2 minutes ago, remember said:

also think about how loaded the topic is for us. it always plays into the posts. instead of getting defensive you could also make your position about male behavior clear you are not contented about. we often see the confrontation as more actual than what the threat of the dynamic is about - which plays into the separation dynamic. you probably are not part of the people who think women are responsible for being attacked by men or are you? then do you count yourself to the group of these people or do you have a opposition towards their behavior?

I want my daughter to rise up and stand up for there own and fight against atrocities faced by them. As a father i will always be there to support her only from back, coz i know she can fight for her own.

I think women are seeing themselves low and are sticking to stories put up by men. I want them to break free of all clutches that is holding them back and they dont need any men for that.

I want every women to realize the kali in them and dance at top of shiva.