No self, no point of reference

[mandyjw]

There can be no movement without a point of reference. Or there can be only movement. Love is alive, a metaphorical river of consciousness/creation. Movement and stillness each require a self, a point of reference to be experienced. 

Yesterday I laid down and looked at the sky beneath some trees. It was windy and the clouds were moving. It looked like the clouds were still and the tree branches moving and so it felt like I was moving with them. But this was not an illusion, rather the point of reference of myself was the only illusion all along. 

 The illusion is my creation. I can't understand "my own" spiritual evolution anymore, it feels like a strange loop with no point of reference. When I notice that I feel bad I have held myself to a standard and have unconsciously referred to myself as a point of reference. 

The courage to see that truth is love feels amazing but the mind will rob it of that and use its newfound insights against it in the form of self judgement. I've never seen so clearly before how even in practice, truth and love are ONE. The truth FEELS like love.

"That's all creation is about, the feeling that it brings to you. The manifestation that matters most is the manifestation of emotion, and you have the ability to manifest the emotion before you manifest any of the actuality that you are all so eager about manifesting." -Abraham Hicks

 

 

 

 

 

[mandyjw]

Feels like absolute freedom. Why does this feel so big?

Because you were assuming a you and a point of reference. That was duality itself. Always occurring in ONE movement of non-motion. 

WHERE'S THE CENTER OF A CIRCLE? It's an arbitrary point, the point itself creates a new circle itself, another conceptual circle and will ad infinitum!!!!  The real center doesn't exist!!!!! How did I sit through geometry class and draw with a compass all my life and never see this??? You ARE the center of the universe! YOU ARE NOT!!! 

[Raptorsin7]

@mandyjw There is no such thing as a true thought. What problem are you trying to solve with thinking?

It's almost always the case that when we try to solve a problem with thinking, it's actually the thinking that caused the problem in the first place.

[mandyjw]

12 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

There is no such thing as a true thought.

Do you realize what that means, that that thought above also isn't true? Thought is no problem. What is an insight, what is an epiphany? Maybe we create puzzles just so that we can feel challenge and the reward of each piece finding its place in the whole. 

If you're not having fun with your puzzle at the moment, then by all means take a break from it and come back to it later. 

Edited March 1, 2020 by mandyjw

[Gili Trawangan]

Yup, your post resonates deeply.

[ivankiss]

13 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@mandyjw There is no such thing as a true thought.

Every thought is the truth.

[Nahm]

“The Truth is everywhere!”

-Thomas Penrose

?

[Lento]

@mandyjw

Perhaps it's time to move on from spirituality to something else. To be honest, all I see here is unnecessary thought-loops. I don't think there's much to get from this. Perhaps consider continuing your exploration in other areas.

[mandyjw]

@Nahm Is that a made up quote? 

@LentoI feel like we're kids and I have a rubix cube puzzle and I'm completely immersed in it, and you are hell bent on trying to convince me it's a boring waste of time and to go watch TV instead. Am I disturbing your TV show by shouting at my puzzle to much?

This is just play and it doesn't matter what it looks like. Do you realize what this MEANS? FREEDOM. There's no point of reference, there's NOTHING TO FIND, not standard to hold oneself to. So why should I explore in "other" areas? I'm having the "time" of "my life." Do you see how silly this all is, how the nonexistent truth looks very silly when it's glimpsed and then judged by the mind? It's because your mind is sneakily using a point of reference of what it THINKS it will or would look like. What else can there ever be but unnecessary thought loops? What else are we doing but putting the rubix cube back to the same order that it looked like when it was brand new? 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by mandyjw

[Nahm]

@mandyjw Of course.

[zeroISinfinity]

Take a deep breath let go and be Infinite.  - Alex the kid. 

[Lento]

@mandyjw

If I was your guru, I would hit you with a stick! But maybe you'd have to learn your lesson the hard way. Or maybe I am wrong.

Time will tell..

[zeroISinfinity]

Hey zen stick is my 2nd most dirtiest pleasure(we know, we all know, you are just....no words ). 

Well zen stick is much more effective when you bash yourself first. 

[mandyjw]

@Lento I was talking to @Raptorsin7 in my journal and realized that without examples it doesn't seem helpful, so here's what I mean in practice. Hope this explains a bit better.

It's just referring to entering a meditative state after getting caught in thoughts that don't feel good, ie involve and imply an I, or a point of reference. I believe that what is missed so often is that the self or the I is not the only point of reference, and unconsciousness persists, not seeing that it IMPLIES the "I" when it thinks other thoughts. It's so subtle that surrender to feeling ie meditation is the only way it can be brought into awareness.

 It's only by feeling that you know the nature of your thoughts. The "I" is never the problem. "I like apples" is not a problematic thought, even though I'm explicitly talking about myself and my relationship to an outside object. However if I watch a man judge another woman's body and I feel awful about what he says, I have identified with her, or with myself rather, without having any thought of an "I" whatsoever. I had a "point of reference" both for how he should behave and maybe another layer of feeling held to a standard of beauty and identification with the thought of the female body that is ultimately threatening to me. Even though I'm just witnessing this situation my feelings about it without a self referential thought that I can point to, my unconscious identification with the illusory self make itself known by feeling. 

Too often we turn the ego or the I into a point of reference, and enlightenment into another point of reference rather than surrendering to feeling in the moment. 

Edited March 3, 2020 by mandyjw

[Lento]

@mandyjw

I've read that discussion earlier. Perhaps I'm too dumb to have such problems. My mind isn't that sophisticated.

[mandyjw]

@Lento I don't think that's the case.  

[Lento]

@mandyjw

I don't think.

That's the case!

?

Edited March 3, 2020 by Lento

[mandyjw]

 *Chucks metaphorical rubix cube puzzle at @Lento 's head.*

[Lento]

1 minute ago, mandyjw said:

 *Chucks metaphorical rubix cube puzzle at @Lento 's head.*

So that it may start working again ?

[mandyjw]

Sometimes I feel like we're all a bunch of little kids who want to play zen master and student, and everyone wants to be zen master and hit people with sticks but no one wants to play student.