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Anderz

Breatharianism Journal

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I found an excellent argument called The Idle Argument:

"If it is fated that you will recover from this illness, then, regardless of whether you consult a doctor or you do not consult a doctor you will recover.

But also, if it is fated that you will not recover from this illness, then, regardless of whether you consult a doctor or you do not consult a doctor you will not recover.

But either it is fated that you will recover from this illness or it is fated that you will not recover.

Therefore it is futile to consult a doctor." - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fatalism/#7

Amen! Just refuse the whole healthcare system, that's my view. One counterclaim in the article is: "The conclusion does not follow, because it may have been fated that you will recover as a result of seeing the doctor."

My argument is that if I don't see the doctor, then that's what is fated and so I can choose to refuse to see the doctor. Also, most likely the doctor will just make things worse in the long run. Someone even said that the leading cause of death is actually the healthcare system!

EDIT: From a logical perspective it's probably impossible to definitively determine things like causes and fatalism since all descriptions are just models or concepts. This from the article is true though it seems to me: "And it is, of course, always possible, for all that has been said, that fatalism is correct."

Edited by Anderz

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I'm doing some more research about fatalism. Exciting stuff. I think I will adopt fatalism as my religion! Then I don't need logical proof. It is still useful to have proof to support a belief system. I found this statement:

"General Fatalistic Conclusion: Whatever will be, has to be." - https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil100/Sider.pdf

There are counter arguments, but with a few assumptions, general fatalism seems to hold. One assumption that can be made is that there is no true randomness; for example the pilot wave interpretation of quantum mechanics is deterministic. Also, Stephen Hawking suggested that QM may be deterministic (only waves). Another assumption is that it's valid to dismiss inconsistencies such as Russell's paradox, so that a statement can only be either true or false.

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My definition of absolute fatalism is the same as the changeless reality I posted about in some earlier post:

Definition: Absolute fatalism means that all past and future is changeless.

The word "fatalism" often has a bad connotation. That's a false approach in my opinion. In my view it's the ego that believes in free will that is so confused that it believes in a false kind of fatalism when it comes to the death of the physical body. With absolute fatalism the future is always unknown. Not even physical death can be determined as something certain.

So almost ironically, absolute fatalism opens up more possibilities than the ordinary ego belief system. There are no actual possibilities in absolute fatalism, but from our personal perspective there will always be a limitless number of possibilities because it's impossible to fully predict the future.

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Good fatalism in the Bible:

"The Lord works out everything to its proper end— even the wicked for a day of disaster." - Proverbs 16:4

"In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps." - Proverbs 16:9

"A person’s steps are directed by the Lord. How then can anyone understand their own way?" - Proverbs 20:24

"for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." - Philippians 2:13

And as for randomness, the Bible says:

"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord." - proverbs 16:33

So even seemingly random events are determined by God according to the Bible. And this is consistent I think with all the other verses in the Bible where people are told to choose this or that. Even the choices are predetermined by God! The Bible says it's determinism with a good purpose. And the Bible includes all past and future.

"I make known the end from the beginning,
    from ancient times, what is still to come.
    I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
    and I will do all that I please.’" - Isaiah 46:10

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Even from an atheistic perspective absolute fatalism is excellent, at least with my idea of evolution as a pull towards larger and larger holons. Guaranteed success forever. Zero accidents and zero mistakes seen from the total picture. Zero chans and zero randomness.

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I feel too lazy to look it up now but I have found lots of verses in the Bible saying that ALL people WILL be saved. And hell is not a place but according to my interpretation a state of being in sin forever. And sin means to miss the mark, meaning being mistaken. And one cannot be deluded forever. So the second death with "burning in the lake of sulfur forever" is a parable, not something that can actually happen.

From that perspective absolute fatalism is consistent with a loving God. I even have an idea that sin means the belief in free will! Many if not most Christians will probably think of that claim as outrageous, but I think it's consistent with the Bible. Yes, God has determined even the evil deeds, but that's temporary learning tools in our fallen world ruled by the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The tree of truth is the tree of life and fatalism guarantees an eternal tree of life. And all souls will be saved, even all evildoers will be saved, although horrible evil deeds may require one helluva repentance.

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Then what about the fall of humanity? Didn't Adam and Eve CHOOSE to eat of the forbidden fruit by their own free will? First of all, as I have already written about in an earlier post, God KNEW that Adam and Eve would eat of the fruit. It's a part of God's plan. It's a cosmic trick basically to prevent humanity from remaining stuck in the simple state of oneness with God in the Garden of Eden. Humanity had to become seemingly separated from God and learn and grow and develop on our own through the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Then when we have become developed enough as a civilization, humanity will return to the "tree of life" and oneness with God, but now with unique learned skills, knowledge and experience. So the messy struggle of humanity throughout history in our "fallen world" has a deliberately and necessary purpose. And the so-called choice made by Adam and Eve was an already determined event and not something done with some shaky real free will.

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I now put in some effort finding Bible verses about ALL being saved:

"And all people will see God’s salvation." - Luke 3:6

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”" - John 12:32

"to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ." - Ephesians 1:10

"It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”" - Romans 14:11

"By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear." - Isaiah 45:23

"On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever." - Isaiah 25

"You who answer prayer, to you all people will come." - Psalm 65:2

"The Lord upholds all who fall and lifts up all who are bowed down." - Psalm 145:14

"The last enemy to be destroyed is death. ... When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." - 1 Corinthians 15

"That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." - 1 Timothy 4:10

"But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord." - Luke 2:10-11

And here I found an interesting observation:

"1 Timothy 2:3-6 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have (thelo) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This is a powerful scripture as it stands, because God’s sovereign will to save all people and have them come to the knowledge of the truth cannot be frustrated by fallen man or Satan. This scripture becomes even stronger once we understand that the primary meaning of the Greek word thelo is to be resolved or determined, as given in Strong’s Concordance – G2309.

Unfortunately, the NKJV, the NIV and some other versions use the weaker meaning of thelo, which is to desire. God not only desires that all men will be saved, but He has resolved and determined that all men will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." - https://godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-i/chapter-4-universal-reconciliation-scriptures-the-riches-of-christ/

Edited by Anderz

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Many Christians seem to be against what is called universal salvation.

"In Christian theology, universal reconciliation (also called universal salvation, Christian universalism, or in context simply universalism) is the doctrine that all sinful and alienated human souls—because of divine love and mercy—will ultimately be reconciled to God.[1] The doctrine has generally been rejected by Christian religion, which holds to the doctrine of special salvation that only some members of humanity will eventually enter heaven, but it has received support from many prestigious Christian thinkers as well as many groups of Christians. The Bible itself has a variety of verses that, on the surface, seem to support a plurality of views.[2]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

I see a both/and perspective being possible here. Meaning, that yes repentance is necessary in the form of removing sin, but with sin meaning an error, it's again a matter of removing the error in one's belief system. And one cannot remain in error forever, so everybody will be saved. Some people may have to do a lot of repentance however if they are deeply in the grip of sin.

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If all will be saved, then why did Jesus have to die on the cross? As I see it, the cross symbolizes the original sin, and humanity's fallen state is represented by being stuck on the cross. And Christ's resurrection represents transcending our fallen world.

Jesus was teaching humanity, with miracles, parables and how to wash away all sin from humanity through his crucifixion and resurrection. If he had wanted to, Jesus could have cured all diseases in the entire world, but that was not the purpose. The purpose for humanity is to transcend the world, not to remain stuck on a fallen level. So Jesus just showed some examples of transcended states and possibilities as a way of teaching us the way, and the truth, and the life. If Jesus had fixed all problems in the world, we would have become stuck in the fallen world! Not good.

And without the crucifixion we would be unaware of the connection between sin and how to transcend sin. And here it's NOT about transcend and include. Sin means error, and thus sin will not be included, only transcended.

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As for the other major religions, I couldn't find a consistent enough agreement about salvation. :( But as I have posted before, there is decent agreement about transcending into a new world :) :

Christianity

"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth." - Isaiah 65

"Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." - Revelation 21:1

Judaism

" HaOlam HaBa, or "the world to come", is an important part of Jewish eschatology" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_to_come#Jewish_eschatology

"The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot[9] (commandments) He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

Islam

"Allah creates new heavens and a new earth. Upon their completion, the third trumpet will be blown. It is “the trumpet of resurrection.”" - https://christinprophecy.org/articles/islamic-eschatology/

Hinduism

"In Hindu eschatology the current age is the Kali Yuga, a period of decline. Kalki ('Destroyer of Filth') will appear to purge all evil, beginning a golden age of Satya Yuga." - https://www.revolvy.com/page/World-to-come

"Kalki ... is described in the Puranas as the avatar who rejuvenates existence by ending the darkest and destructive period to remove adharma and ushering in the Satya Yuga, while riding a white horse with a fiery sword." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki

Buddhism

"Maitreya's coming is characterized by the decreasing of the oceans in size, allowing Maitreya to traverse them freely. The event will also allow the unveiling of the true dharma (Law, Teaching) to the people, in turn allowing the construction of a new world." - https://sirius-eng.net/liki/maitreia.htm

"The symbol of "the sea" is similar to that seen in the beasts rising out of the sea and out of the earth (Revelation 13:1, 11). It designates origination, representing the realm of the earth. Christ's origin is the realm of heaven, but the beasts, part of a corrupt system, come from the sea and the earth. The sea, a body of water, symbolizes "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" (Revelation 17:15)." - https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/4342/Sea-as-Symbol.htm

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Mainstream atheism today is problematic in relation to salvation. Random mutations, heat death of the universe and rejection of spirituality are just a few of the obstacles. One good thing with science is that it changes when new and better theories are discovered. And here my prediction is that the idea of evolution as a pull towards larger and larger holons will turn out to be true. This will then allow for the understanding of transcendent evolutionary leaps.

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Absolute fatalism as I defined it earlier, is that the same as determinism? No. Not the same as this definition:

"Determinism is the philosophical belief that all events are determined completely by previously existing causes." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Absolute fatalism doesn't need to be determined only by previously existing causes. And I have a new definition:

Definition: Evolutionary fatalism means that past and future are changeless and that the future leads to larger holons.

In evolutionary fatalism, the past is dependent on the future criteria of larger holons. That's the evolutionary pull I have described earlier!

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Defeatism is even less related to fatalism than determinism. Defeatism can only appear in fatalism if that's the fate of the person. The person himself or herself cannot choose to enter a state of defeatism.

One potential relation is if a person's realization of fatalism results in defeatism as a matter of fate. But fatalism is different than determinism and the potential vanished altogether in evolutionary fatalism since defeatism is detrimental for reaching larger holon development.

Defeatism is devolution not evolution.

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In the Bible I think God says somewhere: "I Am that I Am". Interestingly, that's consistent with evolutionary fatalism where reality "just is".

Other attributes of God also check out:

Omnipotence (all-powerful) - yes, God determines all.

Omniscience (all-knowing) - yes, only God knows all past and future.

Omnipresence (all-present) - yes, God is all.

Eternal - yes, God always is.

Indestructible - yes, God is changeless.

All-loving - yes, God produces only good.

Infinite - yes, there is no limit to God's expansion.

So far so good for evolutionary fatalism. Here comes the anticlimax though, a downer for Christians perhaps and a relief for others:

Free will - NO! God does not have free will.

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I watched some Christian debates about fatalism vs free will, and oh my! They are struggling like crazy trying to make their beliefs consistent with the Bible. Apparently something really difficult to achieve. My simple definition of evolutionary fatalism is consistent with the Bible, but of course I just removed the whole tricky part which is free will, even for God! Haha.

I forgot at least one attribute in the list in my previous post. Is God superior intelligence? Yes! Evolutionary fatalism includes a pull into larger holons. That requires extremely sophisticated intelligence, such as pulling inorganic matter into the first living cells. Try to produce that with a few chemicals in a Petri dish.

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How can I claim that evolutionary fatalism is consistent with the Bible when I have removed all free will? My idea is that free will is sin, meaning an error of belief. And the Bible has to explain things to us on that level! The Bible has to use terms like: "do this, don't do that", as if free will is real because that's our level of experience.

One of the quotes from the Bible I posted earlier that hints at us humans having no free will:

"In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps." - Proverbs 16:9

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How does moral responsibility compute with lack of free will? In my model evolution pulls manifested reality into larger and larger holons that become more and more complex. When we look at as complex and large holons as societies moral responsibility becomes a necessity for maintaining the integrity intact of those holons. So in our "sinful" state (mening false ego belief in separation) moral responsibility emerges as something we become pushed into, both from society and from our own belief system.

Then at even higher levels of holon development sin is recognized as an error and the moral responsibility becomes redundant because at that level we become inherently ethical without the need for some external or internal moral codes.

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Notice how much punishment there is in the Bible. A formidable orgy of retribution often with God as a vengeful dictator demanding obedience left and right. That's necessary at earlier stages of social development.

So even without free will there still needs to be forceful corrective mechanisms in society, especially in early stages of development.

And also fear is a necessary and prominent factor at those stages. The Bible needed to scare the crap out of people in ancient times basically.

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Now I actually found a more clear explanation of the Bible. In this video the first debater describes how the Bible says that we do NOT have free will:

He does however say that only God has free will. That's inconsistent with my current view but regarding the interpretation of the Bible I think he is on the right track.

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