Final inquiry (for 'experienced' seekers)

[Mu_]

36 minutes ago, Emanyalpsid said:

But the experience of them is there, they are there, although they are formless (not manifested). So what are they?

But you are in the right direction that it is not a particular 'thing', because they are formless they are hard to identify. However, they manifest in form if the conditions are met. A flower is the manifestation of 'is'. If the flower has not manifested because the conditions are not met, it is formless. To use an example with the flower; if you plant the seed you already know that the flower is there, it however has not manifested itself yet (it is formless) because it needs to grow. But you cannot say the flower was never there, it is just formless. So you can plant the seed and let the flower manifest, or you do not plant the seed and let the flower be formless. You know the flower is in the seed. 

The same goes for consciousness, it can manifest if the conditions are met, which means you identify with it in the mind. It can manifest if a human body grows and identifies with experience. You don't even have to call it consciousness, the identification with experience suffices. But it is the same as with the flower (manifestation), it was already present in the seed (formless). 

Now we have identified them, still the question remains what they are.

You are right in that the words would only be concepts, but they can describe what is happening, that is the inquiry. Like I did above. After the inquiry it can be summarized. Like I said, you must not look for a word or a thing, then you look for form consciousness.

Im more saying that it's more then just experience, its more then just the answer to the question you posed, its more then any human view on it, its also all those, its the answer, the question and the answering/questioning process.  So when I say all "awakening to nonduality and everything in between experience" is in a way a metaphor that is pointing to an actual, I'm saying just that and simultaneous its more then that and Is that.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Mu_

[Emanyalpsid]

16 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

There are still subtle distinctions here.

What do you mean with 'here'?

Quote

There are no questions or answers when all distinctions collapse.

That is why it is the final inquiry. After answering the last question, no questions remain. You dissolve (Nirvana) from being one (non-duality).

Edit: I don't know if you got my starting point. The starting point is non-duality (one), the distinctions have already collapsed.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Emanyalpsid

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Mu_ said:

In that particular moment there are no questions and answers, and all distinctions collapse, but that doesn't invalidate something happening or something never not always being the case.  Which is were questioning and finding out into ones nature and what this is all about comes in, perhaps you could say from "what is" itself.

Well sure, yet that is just a game. There are plenty of games with different rules and concepts. Yet it's all relative. There is no "particular moment", there is no "something", there is no "case". Those are all assumptions we make to make sense of things and communicate. At the end of the day, one cannot describe prior to meaning with meaning. That's just a fun game. 

In thousands of years, human consciousness will evolve to levels of consciousness we cannot currently imagine. Our current minds will seem so rudimentary and primitive. The current level of human awareness will seem like that of a dog to those future beings. Would our best explanation be valid to those highly advanced minds that laugh at our current puny minds? It's like a dog trying to figure out the nature of reality. It's just a humorous fun game.

[Mu_]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Well sure, yet that is just a game. There are plenty of games with different rules and concepts. Yet it's all relative. There is no "particular moment", there is no "something", there is no "case". Those are all assumptions we make to make sense of things and communicate. At the end of the day, one cannot describe prior to meaning with meaning. That's just a fun game. 

In thousands of years, human consciousness will evolve to levels of consciousness we cannot currently imagine. Our current minds will seem so rudimentary and primitive. The current level of human awareness will seem like that of a dog to those future beings. Would our best explanation be valid to those highly advanced minds that laugh at our current puny minds? It's like a dog trying to figure out the nature of reality. It's just a humorous fun game.

It is a fun game.  But isn't also a really interesting one to find out some actual truths of Being?  Somehow I feel like your saying its never actually going to amount to finding out something "actual".  Or am I reading into this incorrectly.

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, Emanyalpsid said:

Edit: I don't know if you got my starting point. The starting point is non-duality (one), the distinctions have already collapsed.

Of course. Yet, I sense attachment to subtle distinctions. There are hints of subtle beliefs. 

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

It is a fun game.  But isn't also a really interesting one to find out some actual truths of Being?  Somehow I feel like your saying its never actually going to amount to finding out something "actual".  Or am I reading into this incorrectly.

Sure, finding "actual truths" can also be a fun game, depending on how it's played. It can also be a frustrating game. 

It's all within a dream. What is "actual" and "not actual" in Mario's World?

[Emanyalpsid]

14 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Of course. Yet, I sense attachment to subtle distinctions. There are hints of subtle beliefs. 

Can you elaborate? I don't get you.

[Emanyalpsid]

28 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

Im more saying that it's more then just experience, its more then just the answer to the question you posed, its more then any human view on it, its also all those, its the answer, the question and the answering/questioning process.  So when I say all "awakening to nonduality and everything in between experience" is in a way a metaphor that is pointing to an actual, I'm saying just that and simultaneous its more then that and Is that.

So you are more then experience? Then you don't want to go into the inquiry. Which is fine.

[Mu_]

14 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Sure, finding "actual truths" can also be a fun game, depending on how it's played. It can also be a frustrating game. 

It's all within a dream. What is "actual" and "not actual" in Mario's World?

And if ITS all within a "Dream", wouldn't that make the dream, the real and the real, the dream.  The actual and not actual in Mario world is answered in Understanding.

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Emanyalpsid said:

Can you elaborate? I don't get you.

My sense is that there are some deep concepts being revealed. My sense is that there is a dynamic that is taking "ownership" of these concepts and believes they are true. Attachment to this cognitive dynamic evaporates with direct experience and embodiment.

What you write (and I write) is no more true than a leaf falling from a tree. It is no more true than anything else written on this forum. Yet, I don't sense peace within that. I sense an attachment and belief that what you are writing is true.

 

[Mu_]

8 minutes ago, Emanyalpsid said:

So you are more then experience? Then you don't want to go into the inquiry. Which is fine.

You keep narrowing down what I'm saying into partials that disintegrate my actual point/s.  I've done the inquiry and it can reveal Truth, but I'm also saying that its not the whole picture.....and yet paradoxically it kinda is

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

And if ITS all within a "Dream", wouldn't that make the dream, the real and the real, the dream.  The actual and not actual in Mario world is answered in Understanding.

Sure, we can call the dream real. We can also call it takishfet, yugoshoo and mikatalifunote. 

Real is Unreal and Real is not Unreal. There is no way to step outside of nothing/everything and objectively categorize some parts as being "real" and other parts as being "not real". 

[Mu_]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Sure, we can call the dream real. We can also call it takishfet, yugoshoo and mikatalifunote. 

Real is Unreal and Real is not Unreal. There is no way to step outside of nothing/everything and objectively categorize some parts as being "real" and other parts as being "not real". 

Agreed.

[purerogue]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Sure, we can call the dream real. We can also call it takishfet, yugoshoo and mikatalifunote. 

Real is Unreal and Real is not Unreal. There is no way to step outside of nothing/everything and objectively categorize some parts as being "real" and other parts as being "not real". 

 Better question is how to find answers , when nothing holds it, at least nothing relative. 

Our minds are not even wired to understand it , or are they. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by purerogue

[Truth Addict]

@Serotoninluv

Thank you for being patient with me, and thank you again for your past replies on this site. You helped me a lot.

34 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

That's one way of looking at it. Yet, be aware that no single perspective is "correct". Each perceptive is merely a pointer. There are many different pointers and it's easy to become attached to a particular pointer. Then, the mind becomes fixated on manipulating and developing the pointer, rather than the direct experience of that which is being pointed to.

Saying that something is correct implies that something else is wrong, which is not the case.

All I know is what is, and it's correct. For that matter, I think it's very important to keep developing awareness.

Also,

49 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

it would also be "correct" to say that "it" is everything. Thus, reason is "it", since reason is within everything. 

I see, God did not kill the devil. It allowed it to be.

Because:

Formless=Form

God=Devil

Now, can I get to work? 

[Emanyalpsid]

47 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

My sense is that there are some deep concepts being revealed. My sense is that there is a dynamic that is taking "ownership" of these concepts and believes they are true. Attachment to this cognitive dynamic evaporates with direct experience and embodiment.

Which concepts? Which dynamic? Which ownership? Attachment to this cognitive dynamic? Which embodiment?

Quote

What you write (and I write) is no more true than a leaf falling from a tree. It is no more true than anything else written on this forum. Yet, I don't sense peace within that. I sense an attachment and belief that what you are writing is true.

 

What I am writing is just experience, like writing that a leaf falls from a tree. It is true, but the words are empty, just like the leaf falling from the tree. The words are just a manifestation, just like the flower.

You sense attachment, so this attachment is in you. What are you attached to?

I myself dwelled in a state beyond non-duality for some time, where I was aware of dependent arising, but I was still attached to consciousness.

Have you done the inquiry? Everything should be revealed there.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Emanyalpsid

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, purerogue said:

 Better question is how to find truth , when nothing holds it, at least nothing relative. 

From an absolute perspective, there is no true or false. From a relative perceptive, there is true and false. When those two perspectives are unified there is true/false and there isn't true false.

Human minds are highly conditioned into the relative. At first, I think it's best to break that attachment and get as much direct experience in the absolute. Yet due to conditioning the mind will continually try to make relative sense of glimpses into the absolute. I've found when the mind is at peace in the absolute, a new perspective of the relative emerges. For a long time, I felt like I was "dancing between two worlds". My perception seemed to flip between the absolute and relative. Then, the two began to emerge as a unified whole.

Part of the process is to let go of the mind's desire to grasp the relative. 

[Emanyalpsid]

Thanks for answering this. I have trouble with this truth thing, I never worked with it.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Emanyalpsid

[Forestluv]

34 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Serotoninluv

Saying that something is correct implies that something else is wrong, which is not the case.

All I know is what is, and it's correct. For that matter, I think it's very important to keep developing awareness.

From a relative perspective, there is correct and incorrect. This is the perspective the mind is conditioned for. This is the perspective the mind becomes attached to and identified with. The process is not to destroy relative perspectives and adopt new beliefs that relative perspectives don't exist. The process is to dissolve the attachment and identification to relative perspectives. 

When a mind gets glimpses of absolute, it's tendency is to contextualize it in relativity - that is what the mind is conditioned to do. Or, the mind may try to embrace the absolute is true and reject the relative. In my journey, I embraced the absolute and sought to further experience nonduality. I began talking in nondual terms and challenging everyone speaking in relative terms. This was quite awkward and annoying to people. So, I isolated myself in my free time. Mediation, yoga and spending time in nature. This helped to embody the essence of presence/stillness/emptiness and gave contrast to relativity. As well, psychedelics helped because they created nondual realities and revealed lessons about distinctions. Eventually nondual be-ingness with and without psychedelics became as real as the conventional relative world.

One of Leo's videos (I think the 10 Ox one), revealed the next stage in which the absolute and the relative become a unified whole.  Absolute is Relative. Relative is Absolute.

[Forestluv]

28 minutes ago, Emanyalpsid said:

Which concepts? Which dynamic? Which ownership? Attachment to this cognitive dynamic? Which embodiment?

I think trying to answer these questions would be a distraction at this time. It seems like you are exploring, inquiring, processing and integrating at deeper levels and I don't want to distract from that.