how do i know if this spiritual stuff is not just an evolutionary way to trick us?

[moon777light]

I am currently reading "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" by Yuval Noah Harari. In it he describes that one of the most important things that separates us homo sapiens from the other human species and other animals is that we have the ability to speak about things that are fiction, we can make things up and talk about entities and items that we cannot see. The reasoning for this is because it enabled humans to interact collectively. It was an evolutionary trick to improve on the species so we can survive better. Apes can hold a group of maximum 100 members, whereas we can have huge cities and countries because we are motivated by things that do not exist. (back then religions, today over the concept of a 'nation' or brands or companies). He uses an example how a company is not a real thing, its an entity. A company isnt the workers, it isnt the factories, or the products, because you can take all that away and its image still exists. People start working together at jobs even if they dont know each other because both are motivated by this imagined entity. Brands are kinda like the religions of today.

He then states something bold "there are no Gods in the universe, no human rights, no laws, no justice, no nation, no money, outside the common imagination of human beings" 

How do i know if all this spiritual stuff/consciousness is a just another entity that a subgroup is ascribed to?  Isnt it all just common imagination of human beings, these chakras/these alternate states? I realize that people can say that the difference is that they EXPERIENCE feelings/emotions/visuals but dont super Stage Blue people on the SD scale also experience feelings/emotions/visuals when talking about a entity in the sky called God? Or stage Orange people when talking about a brand they obsess over?

 

[Preetom]

9 minutes ago, moon777light said:

How do i know if all this spiritual stuff/consciousness is a just another entity that a subgroup is ascribed to?  

Are you aware right now?

[Aakash]

A) Conspiracy theories even if they may be true , have no presence in metaphysics

B) the truth doesn't leave you at any time lol 

c) the truth will let you think whatever you want to think 

d) theres no way to presuade you its not , so it will be the very think you think of 

[moon777light]

Just now, Preetom said:

Are you aware right now?

what do you mean? Like aware that im observing around?

[Preetom]

@moon777light

1) Are you aware of the soles of your feet?

2) Are you aware of the sensations in your chest?

3) Are you aware of the sounds around you?

4) Are you aware?

 

[moon777light]

11 minutes ago, Aakash said:

d) theres no way to presuade you its not , so it will be the very think you think of 

but how does that help anyone? if there is no human imagination, there is no awareness/chakras or whatever...then what? 

9 minutes ago, Preetom said:

@moon777light

1) Are you aware of the soles of your feet?

2) Are you aware of the sensations in your chest?

3) Are you aware of the sounds around you?

4) Are you aware?

 

1.) i can see them/touch them/feel them

2.)I am aware of some heavy feelings in the chest

3.) i can hear different tones that form music, i can hear someone moving things around in the room , a person walking footsteps

4.) Im aware of sensations and colors around me...i hear stuff, i feel emotion stuff inside of me. I can feel hard surfaces around me....so yes, i think.

Edited December 25, 2018 by moon777light

[Aakash]

@moon777light i'm in agree-ance with @Preetom

 

[Preetom]

11 minutes ago, moon777light said:

but how does that help anyone? if there is no human imagination, there is no awareness/chakras or whatever...then what? 

1.) i can see them/touch them/feel them

2.)I am aware of some heavy feelings in the chest

3.) i can hear different tones that form music, i can hear someone moving things around in the room , a person walking footsteps

4.) Im aware of sensations and colors around me...i hear stuff, i feel emotion stuff inside of me. I can feel hard surfaces around me.

Do you notice the common thread in all these experiences? Is there any particular sound, sight or sensation that is staying constant without any fluctuation? But isn't there a common experience of 'being aware' in all of them?

Any god, human right, law, justice, nation, money, chakra, sensations etc can trick us. In fact we can never know what's really out there; whether our perception is really tricking us or not.

But that sense of primordial I AM or I AM AWARE; that is infallible. No experience or perception can overturn that. The very denial of it, establishes and confirms the presence of it!

If there is one 'thing' you can call as absolute knowledge even in the midst of constant trickery, it is this I AM AWARE knowledge. That is Consciousness. You can rest in that 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Preetom

[Preetom]

22 minutes ago, moon777light said:

 if there is no human imagination, there is no awareness/chakras or whatever...then what? 

 

1) When you cease to imagine things, do 'you' cease to exist?

2) In between two thoughts, do 'you' cease to exist?

3) When a thought or sensation passes away, do you feel that a part of yourself has evaporated as well?

4) How much thought, language, god, chakra, science, books, 'common sense', money, other people do you need to simply notice that you are aware?

 

[moon777light]

i guess im more so asking whats the difference in the significance between Gods/Company's/Truth? Arent they all the same, in the fact that they are something that we cannot see/touch, and something that only comes to life through people's words?

[Preetom]

13 minutes ago, moon777light said:

i guess im more so asking whats the difference in the significance between Gods/Company's/Truth? Arent they all the same, in the fact that they are something that we cannot see/touch, and something that only comes to life through people's words?

Exactly! If you doubt it, that's a legitimate doubt. In this sense, you can't be sure of any perception or information. If you had 8 senses instead of 5, you might experience a completely different appearance of this Universe. Similarly, it would be the same case if you had 3 senses instead of 5.

We can't never be sure whats really 'out there'. But does the knowledge I AM AWARE come from people's words? Can any thing invalidate that?

So to answer your question, yes the appearance and human constructs might be hoax, 'spiritual stuff' might be hoax; but that knowledge I AM aka Consciousness is not a hoax/trick.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Preetom

[moon777light]

In this reality, we can see/touch/grasp the world around us. This is what all organisms can experience. But i  guess its hurting my mind/head that i can't fully grasp concepts as real. Im scared that i'll be wasting time on something that has been used to make us be more social/ interact better. The more think about it, the more my head hurts, and im starting to forget what im asking and what answer im seeking. 

10 minutes ago, Preetom said:

1) When you cease to imagine things, do 'you' cease to exist?

2) In between two thoughts, do 'you' cease to exist?

3) When a thought or sensation passes away, do you feel that a part of yourself has evaporated as well?

4) How much thought, language, god, chakra, science, books, 'common sense', money, other people do you need to simply notice that you are aware?

 

1.) no

2.) i want to say yes lol (im too attached ot my thoughts) but no, im still 'here"..i guess

3.)not really

4.)nothing i guess, i just need to be..

So the problem is that thinking about it wont give an answer but just being will? If evolution gave us the ability to talk about things that don't exist, fictious stuff, then won't not utilizing this ability (i.e. just being/no thoughts/just awareness) be regressing evolution?

[Leo Gura]

@moon777light See my video: True vs False Skepticism.

You are misusing skepticism.

[Preetom]

13 minutes ago, moon777light said:

So the problem is that thinking about it wont give an answer but just being will? 

See it for yourself  Let being reveal itself whatever it wants to show you.

13 minutes ago, moon777light said:

If evolution gave us the ability to talk about things that don't exist, fictious stuff, then won't not utilizing this ability (i.e. just being/no thoughts/just awareness) be regressing evolution?

The using of higher cognitive functions like conceptualizing and fictitious additive reality building is not the problem in itself, it's the belief and conviction we put into them and our regard for them as TRUTH without investigation; That sure backfires on us.

Birds chirp, dogs bark etc in order to express and communicate between themselves or between them and their surrounding. Wouldn't it be a tremendous hassle for dogs if they had the 'higher capabilities' for believing and holding on to every single of their 'woofs'?  Then humans would probably have a serious rival when it comes to neurosis haha...

Edited December 25, 2018 by Preetom

[Anton Rogachevski]

Yuval is an enlightened man (stage yellow I presume), he's writing this book from a perspective of non-duality, which is the essential core of "spirituality". He had practiced vipassana for 14 or more years before writing this book.

The only method known to man to be free of these entities is true spiritual practice.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[moon777light]

56 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Yuval is an enlightened man (stage yellow I presume), he's writing this book from a perspective of non-duality, which is the essential core of "spirituality". He had practiced vipassana for 14 or more years before writing this book.

The only method known to man to be free of these entities is true spiritual practice.

i know, which is why it confused me i guess to hear him way something. I still have that underlying expectation of some wonder.

1 hour ago, Preetom said:

it's the belief and conviction we put into them and our regard for them as TRUTH without investigation; That sure backfires on us.

agreed

[Hellspeed]

3 hours ago, moon777light said:

I am currently reading "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" by Yuval Noah Harari. In it he describes that one of the most important things that separates us homo sapiens from the other human species and other animals is that we have the ability to speak about things that are fiction, we can make things up and talk about entities and items that we cannot see. The reasoning for this is because it enabled humans to interact collectively. It was an evolutionary trick to improve on the species so we can survive better. Apes can hold a group of maximum 100 members, whereas we can have huge cities and countries because we are motivated by things that do not exist. (back then religions, today over the concept of a 'nation' or brands or companies). He uses an example how a company is not a real thing, its an entity. A company isnt the workers, it isnt the factories, or the products, because you can take all that away and its image still exists. People start working together at jobs even if they dont know each other because both are motivated by this imagined entity. Brands are kinda like the religions of today.

He then states something bold "there are no Gods in the universe, no human rights, no laws, no justice, no nation, no money, outside the common imagination of human beings" 

How do i know if all this spiritual stuff/consciousness is a just another entity that a subgroup is ascribed to?  Isnt it all just common imagination of human beings, these chakras/these alternate states? I realize that people can say that the difference is that they EXPERIENCE feelings/emotions/visuals but dont super Stage Blue people on the SD scale also experience feelings/emotions/visuals when talking about a entity in the sky called God? Or stage Orange people when talking about a brand they obsess over?

 

You cannot know until you literally awaken your chakras and the body/mind system, and be able to control the reptilian brain in you, the abillity to control your own heart beat, temperature and so on. I don't speak from books, only from my own experience. 

What drugs do, like psychedelics are just a tool to unlock faster for a while this part of the brain, and become conscious for the mind, that is all. 

The fully awakend humans can control this part as they control their breath. Other aspirants and porcupine ghiberish logic are just that, aspirants to awakening. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Hellspeed

[moon777light]

 

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@moon777light See my video: True vs False Skepticism.

You are misusing skepticism.

So according to this pyrrhonism everything cant be true, because if you trace back the proof it either leads to a loop or it leads to a never-ending strings of proofs, ultimately leading to a question you can't answer. SO what im doing here is i am debating the proof/truth of the realness of spirituality whereas im ignoring debating the proof/truth of the stuff i see and can touch, like my desk, etc since im automatically assuming all this is 100% true and undebateable? 

neat

[lmfao]

@moon777light

Quote

how do i know if this spiritual stuff is not just an evolutionary way to trick us?

You don't know if it is a trick or not, true. One can never know for certain that they aren't under the guise of self deception. No entity (like the the god in christianity or islam) or organism can ever be sure they aren't deceiving themselves.

I agree with that quote you mentioned. You talked about how humans have imagined entities in their mind for things. Many things that we take to have a concrete existence are just concepts/words. Human rights, laws, religion, nation, money, it's all an abstraction. The author talked about these things being something you can't directly see and they were concocted in sense. What I see being pointed to by what you type is the difference between the map and the territory. I see meditation and mindfulness as the "best" attempt you can make to avoid these concoctions.  All meditation is about is paying attention to the raw data in your consciousness. Paying attention to the raw data in your consciousness will probably "break down" the existence of even simple thing like "a tree" , and would probably go even deeper with the idea that the author is mentioning. 

I personally think of concepts being rooted in words, with words being rooted in thoughts, and thoughts are just a conglomeration of different noises in your head that have no inherent meaning in the same way that random colours and sounds you experience in the outside world have no inherent meaning. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by lmfao

[Leo Gura]

@moon777light The notion of proof itself is an untennable notion because being is prior to proof. Proof is always a second order thing. All proof is conceptual. Metaphysics is prior to proof.

It is impossible, for example, to prove that you exist or that you were born.