How is wisdom transferred?

[Anton Rogachevski]

13 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Who is asking how is wisdom transferred from who to who? WHO!

I'm sorry if I offended you dear sir.

The answer is my selfish' wisdom hungry and preachy ego.

Or another answer could be God.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, SOUL said:

....and all of it is made aware through the manifest experience of being, we don't have the benefit of being aware of it in the eternal absolute of unmanifest non-experience. That bell cannot be unrung.

That is a contracted concept. In the null void of Mu, a deeper knowing will arise. Mu is prior to the bell being rung.

[SOUL]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

That is a contracted concept. In the null void of Mu, a deeper knowing will arise.

The null void of Mu? Just another concept..........BONG!

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, SOUL said:

The null void of Mu? Just another concept..........BONG!

Exactly. So go prior to the concept of Mu. Prior to all concepts, language, images, senses etc. Go find out for yourself.

The words and concepts are just pointers. They aint it.

[SOUL]

13 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

I'm sorry if I offended you dear sir.

The answer is my selfish' wisdom hungry and preachy ego.

I'm not offended, just humored by the owl cult. WHO!

Does the owl gain it's wisdom of living it's life through the ego? Does the owl ask who? Haha

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by SOUL

[EternalForest]

@Anton Rogachevski People will also listen to a speaker just because they like the speaker and will listen to what they talk about just because they like to hear their voice. I am that way with Mark Sargent, for some reason I really enjoy listening to him talk, even though I don't totally believe the whole flat earth theory. Same thing with Bob Davis and Matt Dillahunty. Even though I don't agree with what's written in the Bible, nor do I agree with the concept of atheism, I enjoy hearing them both speak about the Bible a great deal.

So yes, I do agree that the charisma of the speaker is important, but you shouldn't allow it to totally overtake your skepticism of every piece of text or information that you study. You should do the opposite of what most people do. Most people close themselves off to only a limited selection of perspectives and believe those perspectives dogmatically, getting easily carried away with the persona of the speaker. Instead, strive to open yourself up to every perspective you can find, and be extra skeptical. And if you enjoy the voice and personality of the speaker, be twice as skeptical to ensure that you won't get carried away with dogma.

 

[SOUL]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Exactly. So go prior to the concept of Mu. Prior to all concepts, language, images, senses etc. Go find out for yourself.

"Prior to all concepts" is a concept..... BONG!

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, SOUL said:

"Prior to all concepts" is a concept..... BONG!

These concepts are just pointers toward that which is beyond concepts. Don't get trapped in the concepts. It's not It. . . 

[SOUL]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

These concepts are just pointers toward that which is beyond concepts. Don't get trapped in the concepts. It's not It. . . 

Or just accept that what doesn't exist is true to it's nature and..... doesn't exist.

It takes much more faith to believe that what doesn't exist is all that really exists.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SOUL

[Forestluv]

27 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Or just accept that what doesn't exist is true to it's nature and..... doesn't exist.

It takes much more faith to believe that what doesn't exist is all that really exists.

I wouldn't say these pointers are pointing to something that "doesn't exist". That seems like a resistant ego setting up a high hurdle. The ego is making a pre-judgement that it "doesn't exist". That is a big wall to get over. If the mind doesn't believe the Ox exists and spends it's time conceptualizing against Ox existence - it's unlikely to see the Ox.

I would reframe it as the pointers are pointing to something that cannot be explained or conceptualized. I would say this is closer to the truth and a lower hurdle for a logical mind to get over. It was for me anyway. Then, when the nonlinear, nonlogical arises, a knowing arises - then an energy toward it arises.

I used SD tanks as a tool, yet psychedelics are a much stronger tool in this area. Like the difference between scissors and a chainsaw.

[SOUL]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I wouldn't say these pointers are pointing to something that "doesn't exist". That seems like a resistant ego setting up a high hurdle.

I would reframe it as the pointers are pointing to something that cannot be explained or conceptualized. I would say this is closer to the truth and a lower hurdle for a logical mind to get over. It was for me anyway. Then, when the nonlinear, nonlogical arises, a knowing arises - then an energy toward it arises.

Liberation is much more simple than the complicated abstrusity that has become the teachings of 'non-duality'. I find it interesting that people say it cannot be explained or conceptualized yet spend countless hours explaining their conceptualizations about it.

High hurdle? You mean something like a "prior being-ness that had never had any experience, information, experimentation, observation, contemplation, spirituality"? That's pretty high...

I transcend the ego's craving for understanding and now simply experience liberation so I can clearly explain how simple it is but don't confuse simple for easy, they aren't the same thing, it's simple even if it's not easy.

The 'wisdom' of the path isn't understanding the intricacies of esoteric knowledge, it's what leads to liberation.

[Hsinav]

6 minutes ago, SOUL said:

so I can clearly explain how simple it is

With words? Or do you have a another method suitable for this forum?

[Forestluv]

24 minutes ago, SOUL said:

High hurdle? You mean something like a "prior being-ness that had never had any experience, information, experimentation, observation, contemplation, spirituality"? That's pretty high...

That's not quite it. It appears I'm unable to explain it in reasonable terms. I find conveying the territory through maps to be one of the most challenging aspects of the practice and I'm still developing these skills. Thank you for your thoughts and patience. I find it helpful to be exposed to many different perspectives.

[SOUL]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

No, that's not it. It appears I'm unable to explain it in logical terms. I find that to be one of the most challenging aspects of the practice and I'm still developing skills to communicate it. 

Well, I quoted your own words so if that's not it then... it's your words that are not it. This is the issue with claiming it's "something that cannot be explained or conceptualized" then trying to explain concepts about it. All that esoteric knowledge and spiritual systems are things that preoccupy the ego's craving for understanding and need to 'do something to attain' it.

The explanation is simple but the ego doesn't accept the simple and tricks the mind into seeking the complicated because 'if it's so simple how come I don't have it yet' is the paradox the ego presents in not allowing it to be that simple. Ultimately if the 'wisdom' doesn't cease self suffering how 'wise' is it really? It's just the mind moving pieces of information around thinking it's accomplishing something.

 

[SOUL]

31 minutes ago, Hsinav said:

With words? Or do you have a another method suitable for this forum?

Yea, words can be used but it's not the words used that matter if that makes any sense. I don't purport myself to be an expert or knowledgeable on any religious and spiritual systems or esoteric knowledge. In fact, I know very little about them since I don't read spiritual books.

I'm not an 'ask me anything' type person, though.....hah

[Forestluv]

36 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Well, I quoted your own words so if that's not it then... it's your words that are not it. This is the issue with claiming it's "something that cannot be explained or conceptualized" then trying to explain concepts about it. All that esoteric knowledge and spiritual systems are things that preoccupy the ego's craving for understanding and need to 'do something to attain' it.

There is a difference between trying to figure it out conceptually and trying to explain it to someone with concepts. If I could transmit it via a post-conceptual intuitive method, I would. Yet at our current state of human development we are limited by language, symbols and concepts. I know it can be annoying when someone speaks esoterically and seems to be trying to sound "spiritual". It used to drive me crazy and I would often tell people at the sangha it's simple it should be explained in simple terms. And now I find it's not so simple to explain. . . 

I've found that with sufficient direct experience and integration, the ego's craving for understanding and need to "do something to attain" it dissolves. What arises is a trans-egoic energy to embody it and convey it to other beings along the path. 

Regarding simplicity, I've found that my self can use simplicity as a cover to avoid going deeper. And I keep finding deeper levels. It is so simple, yet also highly complex. A paradox. Yet, it is not an intellectual complexity in terms of reason and logic. That is one reason it is so difficult to communicate it to others.

[Jack River]

Complexity loves to avoid and can’t stand simplicity 

[SOUL]

44 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

There is a difference between trying to figure it out conceptually and trying to explain it to someone with concepts. If I could transmit it via a post-conceptual intuitive method, I would. Yet at our current state of human development we are limited by language, symbols and concepts.

I've found that with sufficient direct experience and integration, the ego's craving for understanding and need to "do something to attain" it dissolves. What arises is a trans-egoic energy to embody it and convey it to other beings along the path. 

Regarding simplicity, I've found that my self can use simplicity as a cover to avoid going deeper. And I keep finding deeper levels. It is so simple, yet also highly complex. A paradox. Yet, it is not an intellectual complexity in terms of reason and logic. That is one reason it is so difficult to communicate it to others.

Liberation is to cease self suffering, that's what liberation is, everything else is blah blah to preoccupy the egomind. If cessation can be accomplished simply why get complicated? Depth doesn't equate to complicated, that's ego distracting from the simple and tricking someone into believing they need complicated. Liberation is a deep peace,

If it is the notion that emptiness and nothingness are attributes and characteristics of the awakened and 'enlightened' life then why fill the mind with all these spiritual systems of labeling and identity? That's like becoming a hoarder to be a minimalist. How much self suffering is created by people trying to understand and meet the demands of these complicated systems?

There's plenty of people offering the complicated on this forum, elsewhere online and in spiritual communities everywhere. I offer a simple path because that is what liberates my experience of self suffering but I see so many still suffering and struggling with the complicated. Wisdom is often knowing what is useless more than it is just what's useful.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SOUL

[Jack River]

The self has the tendency to evaluate according to its bias/prejudices(knowledge/experience/memory). In this is an example of thoughts compulsion to make things more and more complex and push psychological freedom further and further away in time. 

Wisdom seems to be expressed in the form of thought yet is born intelligence (that which is beyond the limitations of the mechanical self). 

That intelligence seems to meet what is complicated very simply. Intelligence puts order in thought. Thought then knows its place. Intelligence knows when thought (knowledge/experience) is necessary and when it is not. Intelligence sees thoughts limitations and the danger of employing thought to solve psychological problems. Intelligence understands that thought has no place to resolve psychological issues. The liberated mind sees the falsity of cultivating freedom by employing thought as a means. This is and example of meeting the complicated mind with simplicity. 

Things will obviously become complicated when relaying/communicating this to a mind that has not observed itself free of evaluation/analysis. Wisdom seems to come come with self understanding dudes. To obseve what-is without evaluating can then be expressed as wisdom via communication dudes. ?

Edited December 5, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

52 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Liberation is to cease self suffering, that's what liberation is, everything else is blah blah to preoccupy the egomind. If cessation can be accomplished simply why get complicated? Depth doesn't equate to complicated, that's ego distracting from the simple and tricking someone into believing they need complicated. Liberation is a deep peace,

If it is the notion that emptiness and nothingness are attributes and characteristics of the awakened and 'enlightened' life then why fill the mind with all these spiritual systems of labeling and identity? That's like becoming a hoarder to be a minimalist. How much self suffering is created by people trying to understand and meet the demands of these complicated systems?

There's plenty of people offering the complicated on this forum, elsewhere online and in spiritual communities everywhere. I offer a simple path because that is what liberates my experience of self suffering but I see so many still suffering and struggling with the complicated. Wisdom is often knowing what is useless more than it is just what's useful.

Perhaps "complicated" might not be the best term. Maybe "nuanced" would be better. The surface levels are about figuring things out, being right, looking good, seeking knowledge and hoarding knowledge. The deeper levels are more about exploration, discovering, being and sharing. Once there is an awakening to no-self, a whole new world opens up. It goes much deeper than simply seeing and catching the Ox - those are just stages 3 and 4 of 10.

And I think reaching out to others that are suffering and offering simple words toward liberation is a heart-felt compassionate endeavor. At times, I've been prone to drop back into spiritual pontification - and as you say, that's not what it's about.