The True Self

[Ben]

There is no "true self". The self is the primary thing that stands between you and enlightenment. Your mind has associated a mental concept with the actual experience of reality. Everything you see and do is filtered through this "trick of the mind" that we refer to as the "self". This is all and everything you see. The heavy ness in your arms and legs, your moods, your dislike of others, the way you've built your life up, is all, 100% because of this psychological trick that we're taught to play on ourselves from a young age. 

Entire society is built for selves and by selves. 

There is no true self, only this lie that causes you to see things through a filter of "self". Keep doing your self inquiry, autolysis, whatever it is you do, but with 1000 times more intensity, and you'll see it and you'll literally lose everything you've ever known. 

[Dodo]

6 minutes ago, Socrates said:

@Emerald Wilkins I tell you what it like for me. See if you can resonate. Me has not disappeared. Only past and future. So I not focused on ohhhh what going to happen to me. And I also not dragged down with past.

But still a me. A more defined me. But nothing is perfection. More like it's imperfection hurts more because I not consumed with me so much I see around me and I want to change it for the better. 

Lot of people think enlightenment state is the end of everything, like secular heaven. It not so. Still all the same stuff going on, the only thing different is the lightness of self..Not so doomed and solid. 

It's very normal experience.

 

have you considered maybe you haven't reached enlightenment but are just thinking you did? Isn't it when someone says they're enlightened they aren't? Something like saying you are humble means you're not humble, because to be humble you have to just be humble and by saying it you are ultimately missing the point?

[Dodo]

6 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Nobody reaches enlightenment.  You talking about it like it's a destination. 

You already enlightened, you just not manifesting it yet

Wait, so by saying you were enlightened earlier you just meant you are you? Like anyone can say they are enlightened and be correct?

My idea of non-enlightened is someone that is still burdened by his mind (like me), so I wouldn't say I'm enlightened. Maybe after I remove the dirt from the window (the mind) I will be!

Edited April 6, 2016 by Dodoster

[Dodo]

5 minutes ago, Socrates said:

@Dodoster Im enlightened. But is it the same as yours is what im saying? Can never be. You cant step into the same river twice.  Its no achievement become enlightened. Become isnt even the right word, become means you got to be something you not, which is future. No enlightenment in the future. 

But there still a self and personality in the here and now. It's just you see it's not what you thought it was, it not everything. 

 

Still not sure, because the things you're saying are different to other things I've read and heard about enlightenment. Ultimately that doesn't matter, right? We're playing the language game here.

[Dodo]

7 minutes ago, Socrates said:

@Dodoster I respond after you altered your statement. Your idea of enlightenment is just an idea, something somebody else gave to you.  This such a big deal over getting enlightened, but that a trap, because how can you not be yourself? Trying to become enlightened is like trying to become something else. All future focused

Don't worry about that, I know that time is an illusion and that all there is is the now. I know my idea is an idea, but it can't be otherwise, as I can't communicate a non-idea. You are also communicating an idea. Also I just started reading an Osho book and the things about seeking you're saying in your next comment.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Dodoster

[Neo]

If time is an illusion, you can't "start" anything?

[Neo]

I'm just playing Devil's advocate. I must be bored.

[jjer94]

9 hours ago, Dodoster said:

Sounds to me like you're digging into Ego stuff here. Isn't the idea of enlightenment to realize that there is no actual *you* perceiving everything else? Especially with the free will, you are only feeding what you want to realize you're not? Or am I wrong?

Nope, you're spot on. Thanks for pointing that out. 

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Socrates said:

@Emerald Wilkins OK, then everything perfect. That was your enlightenment. I don't want to take that away from you. 

Why didn't you continue with the drug?

Ok this personal question.

I didn't continue with the drug because it was very apparent while under the effect of it that I didn't need the drug to be in that state of consciousness. I knew that it was better to develop higher consciousness naturally, instead of using the substance as a crutch. This insight was a natural outgrowth of being in touch with wisdom which comes from the ability to be honest with oneself in a way that's impossible from the egoic mindset. 

The only reason why I did it one more time after the first was because my life was in dire straights and I wanted an escape and to get clarity about the situation. Prior to trying Ayahuasca, I used to smoke Marijuana on a regular basis from the time I was 13 to the time I was 20. When I tried the Ayahuasca and my separate identity dissolved, I realized that I never enjoyed Marijuana or the drugish lifestyle but that I was lying to myself and using it as an identity enhancer to fit a particular persona.

I thought doing drugs was part of what made me interesting and therefore significant. I imagined myself with a chaotic life that was more of a work of art, like Hunter S. Thompson or someone like that. Prior to my non-dual experiences, I lived my life as though someone were making a movie of it. I would invite a lot of chaos into my life for the sake of making a more interesting life story. I was really interested in creating a legacy to help me run from the reaper. Ironically, this is what lead me to try the Ayahuasca. I wasn't looking for a transcendental experience when I first tried it. I was practically an atheist and hyper-rational. I just wanted another novel experience to add value and interest to my life-story.

But what I got was so much more than I bargained for, and I saw through my many pretenses that I had been completely unconscious to prior to that. I realized that my striving and struggling against death was making me neurotic and causing me to suffer every single moment of my life. So, I quit clinging to that drugee identity afterward, and all drugs and my desire to do them naturally fell out of my life. I haven't done any drugs for over six years now.  So, ironically enough, Ayahuasca was my anti-drug.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Emerald Wilkins

[SkyPanther]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

@Emerald Wilkins I used to do drugs too. Fo very same reason, to prove I was just as cool as the other kids are school. I wasnt though, I was dork  

Is enlightenment really a fixed state? I just skim over most of the post here I admit because I busy but I do like to read these stories and peoples opinions, argue, create my own chaos, talk about my own ego, but seems to me everyone wants to know what enlightenment is, or reminisce about past experiences. But enlightement is right under the nose, now, everyone could be enlightened now if they just stopped seeking or trying to fall back on a memory. 

Only the way I see it, as I say I don't really read the post properly, just get a gist and then comment if I want to create movement. 

Why so many fixated on trying to explain what actuality is, it cannot be done 

I think to sort of add to this, people fall back on the memory because "conditioned life" pulls you out of being equanimous, or living without the rooted sense of self.

I used to get very stressed about work, personal stuff, family drama, etc.  Once I got the first experiance, that all became very... I think the best word I can think of is "distant", but a better one is "unattached".  That has not gone away since the experience.

But having work, a family, a house and a mortgage, etc, I still have to function in society.   Unlike Eckhart Tolle, Alan Watts and Ken Wilber, my livelihood comes from sitting in an office, at a computer. Having to take care of my family, my home, my pets, stay uptodate on the latest discoveries in my industry and listen to NPR, and the like to get the latest happenings in the world.

Unlike the yogis and monks most of us live the "laylife" to borrow a Buddhist term.  So distractions come up.

This is just my opinion, but I think most here that have seen through the illusion of self are "enlightened" (or have woken up, to use the secular version of it).

I think everyone is enlightened, but just forget because from the start of life they have been conditioned, these paths are all supposed to be deconditioning that upbringing, and your attachment to your static sense of self. 

What most try to "chase" is being in that state permanently...  and that is possible if you cut yourself off from most stimuli, but not if you are still engaged in the conditioned world.  So for most of us, unless we are willing to cut off modern/conditioned life, "enlightenment" will be a work in progress.   Because we constantly have to decondition ourselves from the world we are a part of by choice. 

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by SkyPanther

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Socrates said:

@Emerald Wilkins I used to do drugs too. Fo very same reason, to prove I was just as cool as the other kids are school. I wasnt though, I was dork  

Is enlightenment really a fixed state? I just skim over most of the post here I admit because I busy but I do like to read these stories and peoples opinions, argue, create my own chaos, talk about my own ego, but seems to me everyone wants to know what enlightenment is, or reminisce about past experiences. But enlightement is right under the nose, now, everyone could be enlightened now if they just stopped seeking or trying to fall back on a memory. 

Only the way I see it, as I say I don't really read the post properly, just get a gist and then comment if I want to create movement. 

Why so many fixated on trying to explain what actuality is, it cannot be done 

That's true. I'm personally very attached to these experiences because they were so pivotal for me. I currently live under the illusion of ego, but these experiences were a small taste of non-duality that changed the course of my life. So, in many ways, it's just another ego game and getting to feel understood when (prior to conversing with others who have had similar experiences) no one else in life gets it. But it is likely an outgrowth of more self-lies, distraction, clinging to dogmas and frameworks, and ego protection. But I'm trying to be mindful.

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

I just want to say this is a great account of development in you. Cleaning up to move onto new pastures. Just IMO and take with shovel full of salt pleese 

Thank you.  Those experiences really changed my life in many ways for the better, even though there were some problematic outcomes of assimilating the memories from the higher state of consciousness back to the lower state of consciousness. 

[Galyna]

@SkyPanther

I liked your answer, would you share please what triggered that state of being One with everything? Did you practice meditation?

Thank you  

[SkyPanther]

18 minutes ago, Galyna said:

@SkyPanther

I liked your answer, would you share please what triggered that state of being One with everything? Did you practice meditation?

Thank you

Sure;  I already had past understanding of different philosophies that lend to existential questions, for instance Panpsychism and Process Philosophy.

But I was actually learning about Artificial Intelligence, and consciousness at the time.  Mostly because as of right now all AI is not conscious, just "intelligent" to various degrees thanks to neutral networking called "Deep Learning". 

I started reading different books and theories, for instance: 

Shadows of the Mind - A Search for the Missing Science of Consciousness

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/shadows-of-the-mind-9780195106466?cc=us&lang=en&

And then other books on Information Theory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoding_Reality

And then I was watching an "ok" movie called "Automata":

 

 

And at the end, something the Robot/AI said about consciousness, life and humanity, triggered a cascade of connect the dots moments, that culminated in all thought stopping and an expansion of consciousness that happened all within a brief moment.

Afterwords I understood "personality" as not self, but a construction of different parts.  Memory, Genetics, Social conditioning, etc.   And had, what I call, a 2 second gap between my emotions and my identification with them.   I never really seriously meditated before this, but the longer I have been meditating, the longer the "gap" gets. 

Since then, along with the gap getting larger with meditation, I have started feeling disenchantment with "stuff".  To the point where I could see myself living as a hermit, or a monk away from the conditioned modern life.  And it is not a depressed feeling, it is actually more freeing/equanimous.

Modern life tends to pull you out of that state, as do all material "things" and pursuits.

There is also still a lot of work left to do in myself, to fully decondition my mind from the ego/self. I just see it as an illusion (or a program running in the information processing organ we call "brain") and pay no mind to it when it acts up.    I know it is there to make sense of the world we live in as "humans". But I do not take it seriously anymore. 

Edited April 6, 2016 by SkyPanther

[Galyna]

 Thanks, can not give you my full response since I am at work )

[Galyna]

@SkyPanther thank you

 

 

 

[SkyPanther]

59 minutes ago, Galyna said:

@SkyPanther thank you

 

 

 

No Problem.

The after effects are very close to what Eckhart Tolle experienced... a reduction in thought, and an attenuated identification with emotions/thoughts... along with a content/sublime feeling at the core of my being (well, I would call it the heart center.)

I still have habitual tendencies (habits), but I recognize them as that, so can change them without taking it personally, and with mindfulness this is actually pretty easy.  For instance I recognize that I spend entirely too much time on these forums.

From my experience, the original teachings of the Buddha make the most intuitive sense, so that is what I have been using to dislodge the other taints and fetters, as the Buddha called them. 

Edited April 6, 2016 by SkyPanther

[jjer94]

2 hours ago, Socrates said:

Enlightenment is so normal it shouldn't even be called enlightenment really. 

"The most difficult thing about enlightenment is that it's too simple." --Sadhguru

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Socrates said:

@Emerald Wilkins

Thank for sharing. 

I've been getting shafting here for being blunt by some people, so going to try to be diplomat now. I hope I don't upset you. 

Your belief about everyday people not getting your enlightenment experience, well I think you might be surprised!

Talking about these things in conceptual way using spiritual language yes I agree can get people's backs up and they start calling us weirdo and all that yes?  maybe, don't know what your experience is on this. 

But what enlightenment really is supposed to be lived, not talked about. People believe it or not are needing waiting wanting you to become enlightened. Because it just about being able to cope with life and transcend environment. Transcend adversity. That's where your enlightenment is understood by others. Live this way and you may discover people understanding enlightenemnt very well indeed!

The other side is making it into a concept. A time in the past. A religion of sorts. That's where people hate your speaking about it. Because it's just another weird religious thing. The ego needs that. To be special among special ones all seeking,/and it seeks comfort with other spiritual people who "understand" and try to endlessly make their 4 non dual experiences into something that is somehow special and only reserved for seekers on some path. 

It's good to come here and seek comforts and understanding with those who know all the jargon. But this is not enlightement. Enlightenment is so normal it shouldn't even be called enlightenment really. 

Sorry for being blunt. I can't help it LOL 

Thank you for taking the time to speak to me though. I appreciate that

No worries. I appreciate bluntness, even if it stings the ego a bit. I suspect there's a great deal of subtle posturing that I do every time I engage in conversations about enlightenment to paint myself in a positive light. By the way, what is your background? How did you become enlightened?

[Dodo]

6 hours ago, jjer94 said:

"The most difficult thing about enlightenment is that it's too simple." --Sadhguru

From" A Bird on the Wing" by Osho - "The more simple a thing the more difficult it is to understand. "

So my logical mind immediately kicks in by the following : If enlightenment is infinitely simple, then it is infinitely hard to understand <=> Nothingness is infinitely hard to understand <=> we shouldn't try to understand it, because we need an infinite mind for that.

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

@Emerald Wilkins

I'm saying it to burst bubble. Nobody got enlightened by studying it and talking about past experience and future hopes. You can't step into the same river twice .  Thanks for asking my background, I lived with community in Burma since 1975. 

I don't see you posturing. I just see you missing thepoint. Your experience was not even enlightened experience. I had many of these on drugs, it not the same as moment to moment living.

I don't know, Socrates, your comments always dig deep into my ego and maybe that's your hidden agenda, but maaaaan. You sound like the authority on the subject, like you now know ALL, and shouldnt enlightenment mean you now know you don't know? 

And something about always defending your mental position, my egoic me keeps on screaming "that folk aint enlightened" Sorry

Edited April 7, 2016 by Dodoster