Haven't Been Meditating ... But

[Neo]

Haven't been meditating ... but I've been doing quite well listening to Leo's video and reading some books.

Now, I know this post will not get me any *brownie points* and may even annoy some people. Because I've been told on this forum I need to put the work in. You guys that spend hours in meditation, *respect.*

It's just when I close my eyes and start to meditate, it's all fireworks, bangs, whistles, major awful chaos in there, and mind wanders easily. I find it difficult. I'm sure that just needs practice but I'm also real busy.

I just wanted to say that listening to videos has helped me in other ways. For example. I have a bubble jet printer I used about 40 times a day and it likes to print everything at an angle, throw random error messages, paper jam and tell me it's run out of ink when they are full at great expense. (It's an Epson). While I'm not known as being prone to anger, this heap of black plastic junk has a certain effect on me totally out of character. But since I've been listening to Leo, I can step aside from the angry emotion and *see* it rising. I can know it in a way impossible before. I can see the anger rising in it's horror and beauty and remain detached from it.

Another way I've been affected, is by trying to practice "letting go." I suffer from pain a fair bit on and off, and while I'm not telling you it's a cure all, I've had some interesting experiences doing this; when feeling pain in joints, limbs, back, instead of having that face that looks like I'm passing a kidney stone, just relax, allow the pain to be, surrender completely to it in mind and body and on one occasion the pain even disappeared completely.

This surrendering I'm trying in other places in life too. I realised when doing creative things like playing the piano, I've got that difficult look on my face again. I'm learning to loosen up, and the two parts of my brain which have to operate in synchronicity in order to play the piano seem to start laughing and the hands just seem to move on their own, all from just relaxing a little and allowing your body to flow.

 

Listen guys, this is not an excuse, I should be putting in the work, but this is a positive story of how Leo's videos are affecting me, and it's about self improvement at the end of the day...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bombardini]

Beeing mindful in your day to day routines and encounters with other humans is what its all about. If you sit for an hour a day and go straight into unconscious "reactive mode", then what good does it really? I'm not saying meditation doesnt help. In my experience it makes a big difference!

But I belive the choice to be present and aware must still be made.

Anyways, good for you! Keep at it

[jjer94]

You don't have to meditate to reach enlightenment. Technically, you don't need to do anything to realize what you already are, because you're already it! All methods to reach enlightenment are just a matter of removing obstructions (desires, fears, beliefs) in order to see that you've been there the whole time. That's why they call it the "gateless gate."

In fact, meditation can become a trap for some people when they imagine that they are getting somewhere, as if there's some destination they need to arrive to in order to be who they are. They believe that a silent mind (or feeling 'bliss' or whatever other bogus fleeting experience) means enlightenment, so they work so hard to try to silent the mind, as if you need immense effort to reach a state of effortlessness. Sure, earnestness is required to reach enlightenment, but in my opinion, trying to brute force your way to a silent mind is a fool's game. It's like cutting off the heads of a hydra when they're just going to grow back. 

I'm not saying that meditation is useless. When used as a way to release control, meditation can be a very powerful tool. And it doesn't necessarily have to just take place on the cushion. Life itself is your meditation. Every situation can be an opportunity to release control. Monkey mind is not the issue; it's the importance you give to your monkey mind that's the issue. Monkey mind will start to settle down a bit once you start seeing through your desires and fears (i.e. releasing control), and you don't need to be on the cushion to do that.

Cheers!

Edited March 25, 2016 by jjer94

[Nic]

Couldn't agree more! @jjer94

[Guest]

@jjer94"In fact, meditation can become a trap for some people when they imagine that they are getting somewhere, as if there's some destination they need to arrive to in order to be who they are. They believe that a silent mind (or feeling 'bliss' or whatever other bogus fleeting experience) means enlightenment, so they work so hard to try to silent the mind, as if you need immense effort to reach a state of effortlessness. Sure, earnestness is required to reach enlightenment, but in my opinion, trying to brute force your way to a silent mind is a fool's game. It's like cutting off the heads of a hydra when they're just going to grow back. "

Your first sentence makes sense, but I'm sorry, the rest makes no sense.

There are many who study non-duality. Why aren't they all enlightened? If you don't know HOW to let go, or release control, you aren't gonna get there. Releasing control itself is meditation! And what's the best way to LEARN how to release control? Sitting down and learning how to release control....

Yes, you can be mindful in your day-to-day activities, but if the practice of realeasing control is not at the forefront, then it is extremely easy to get caught up in these day-to-day tasks. Meditating in your day-to-day activities WITHOUT proper practice of sitting down at the cushion is like learning how to run before you walk..

Yes, spiritual autopsy and acquiring knowledge about the truth is very useful, but doing that just means that the monkey mind can see through it's fake nature. It doesn't mean that the monkey mind is going to quiten down.

You are coming at this from an angle of spiritual autopsy VERSUS meditation. I would argue that it is NOT one or the other, but both.

Also, what is your definition of enlightenment? The monkey mind seeing it's fake nature is not the same as actually having an enlightenment "experience".

 

There is only this moment. THe right NOW. Everything is just passing away around you. If one doesn't meditate and doesn't develop the practice of meditation, this cannot be truly seen.

Edited March 25, 2016 by TwoDays

[jjer94]

@TwoDays Thanks for the reply!

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If you don't know HOW to let go, or release control, you aren't gonna get there. Releasing control itself is meditation!

If you read my third paragraph, that's exactly what I said. 

When I make the hydra analogy, I'm referring to the people who are in the meditation trap: expecting that a silent mind will bring enlightenment. 

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And what's the best way to LEARN how to release control? Sitting down and learning how to release control....

Yes, you can be mindful in your day-to-day activities, but if the practice of realeasing control is not at the forefront, then it is extremely easy to get caught up in these day-to-day tasks. Meditating in your day-to-day activities WITHOUT proper practice of sitting down at the cushion is like learning how to run before you walk..

I agree to a certain extent. It's a good idea to at least set aside time to do the inner work alone. However, it doesn't necessarily have to be sitting in formal meditation. Like I said, meditation can be a powerful tool, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. There are dozens and dozens of other techniques out there besides formal meditation that can be used as a catalyst for releasing control, and in fact, some techniques can end up being more efficient than meditation. You ever hear of those people who only meditated for a couple decades and got nowhere? 

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You are coming at this from an angle of spiritual autopsy VERSUS meditation.

I never said that there's one thing against another. I just said that meditation is not required for enlightenment; nothing is. Enlightenment is a pathless path. I make no claims except to negate the belief that formal meditation is necessary. Your belief that formal sitting meditation is a necessity is just that: a belief. You may want to open your mind up to the possibility that there are alternatives, or at least supplements, to your meditation practice. 

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Also, what is your definition of enlightenment? The monkey mind seeing it's fake nature is not the same as actually having an enlightenment "experience".

Enlightenment = realizing Absolute Truth, i.e. your true nature. There are stepping stones towards enlightenment that I like to call awakenings, but you can call them enlightenment "experiences" too. 

In my experience, there are two aspects of enlightenment: self-realization and self-negation. Self-realizations are the awakenings that come in a flash. They are insights into your True nature, or at least getting closer to it. You may realize Truth in an instant through self inquiry work or "spiritual autopsy" as you call it (do you mean spiritual autolysis?). Some rationalizing may accompany the experience. However, just because you realize Truth doesn't mean you're done; you still have an entire self-structure intact. The act of seeing through and deconstructing that self-structure I call self-negation. That's where things like meditation and contemplations come in handy; that's really where the brunt of the work takes place.

Again, this is just my experience. I hardly ever meditate anymore, because I've found other tools to be more efficient and effective. I'm also not making claims for or against anything. I'm just simply offering another perspective.

Edited March 26, 2016 by jjer94

[Nic]

@TwoDays I would like to agree with you, my rational side would say that I agree, but I don't through own experience. I Am not enlightened, but I've been blessed by states of enlightenment without looking for it, without sitting down for thousands of hours. Just through total acceptance of what is. I even forgot about the self help, spiritual knowledge of what to pay attention to, in order to be in the moment. Enlightenment is not my goal and shouldn't be seen as one if you want to attain it, maybe this was my strength, I don't know. For me, it's hard to make abstraction from this idea when I "punish" my ego by trying to control it, but I guess it could work, as people did it before apparently.

I embraced my ego, embraced it all without pain, but I felt blessed by life actually before it happened instead and I feel and it felt fine!

It's also hard to tell that this is the way or not by rationalizing the process. To be sure of knowing the truth is conter intuitively not the way to achieve enlightenment. They are most probably many ways on that mountain that can lead you to the top. 

Why all the people that study non duality are not enlightened you ask. Do you want a rational or irrational answer to that question?

My rational answer would be: I don't know.

My irrational answer would be: you don't choose to be enlightened.

The question-answering process has to stop. Even if the answer make sens to you, it won't be the truth. Don't look for something that makes sense. Sens doesn't exit, it's an idea.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Nic

[Guest]

@jjer94I didn't say it was needed.. but I definitely disagree that it is fool's game. I was agreeing that the practice of mindfulness is needed. But I was also saying that sitting down and being mindful (meditation) is the best way for obtaining that mindfulness (or in the zen method, sitting and walking) . I know of no other way that is better for learning how to release control....what other methods are there?

What better method for not getting caught up in your thoughts other than slowing things down and looking at them directly?

@Nic and @jjer94too:

In my experience, thought is the hardest one of the objects in awareness to separate from. Maybe it's not that hard for you both? But I'm pretty sure that most find it extremely difficult to be present in their thoughts, and this is why we meditate, to take a step back from that so that it automatically becomes natural.

Edited March 26, 2016 by TwoDays

[Nic]

7 minutes ago, TwoDays said:

In my experience, thought is the hardest one of the objects in awareness to separate from. Maybe it's not that hard for you both? 

The only thing that comes in my mind right now is: It is very hard when I try to.

At these moments I didn't try to stop anything, I didn't look for peace or quietness, I had the feeling it was forced on to me. No effort what so ever, this is why I also wrote that "you don't choose to be enlightened". And I'm not religious at all!

[jjer94]

@TwoDays

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I didn't say it was needed.. but I definitely disagree that it is fool's game. 

Again, when I said it was a fool's game, I was referring to the people that fall into the meditation trap, that enlightenment is somehow a destination they need to get to, and so they struggle and struggle and get nowhere.

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I know of no other way that is better for learning how to release control....what other methods are there?

There are other methods...but if I told you I'd have to kill you 

Just kidding, I'll mention one: Peter Ralston's bottom-line contemplation. You can find it in The Book of Not Knowing.

Cheers!

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, jjer94 said:

41 minutes ago, jjer94 said:

@TwoDays

Again, when I said it was a fool's game, I was referring to the people that fall into the meditation trap, that enlightenment is somehow a destination they need to get to, and so they struggle and struggle and get nowhere.

There are other methods...but if I told you I'd have to kill you 

Just kidding, I'll mention one: Peter Ralston's bottom-line contemplation. You can find it in The Book of Not Knowing.

Cheers!

@TwoDays

Again, when I said it was a fool's game, I was referring to the people that fall into the meditation trap, that enlightenment is somehow a destination they need to get to, and so they struggle and struggle and get nowhere.

There are other methods...but if I told you I'd have to kill you 

Just kidding, I'll mention one: Peter Ralston's bottom-line contemplation. You can find it in The Book of Not Knowing.

Cheers!

I see what you are saying, but just think it is reckless to even mention meditation traps in your comment. It becomes a reason for saying NOT to DO meditation.

Yes, I know you said not NEEDED. But then why would you include a sentence about people falling into meditation traps if it was purely just about not NEEDING meditation? An answer about not needing meditation would surely only refute the belief of a need for meditation. Mentioning meditation traps, it just seems like you are saying "don't do meditation, because, look at THESE people". When in fact people falling into meditation traps is more anologous to something being misused, and thus has no place in the discussion.

Like I listed in previous posts, all the reasons for doing meditation are there, but that people fall into meditation traps is not an argument for not doing meditation. But I also agree with you that sitting down and being mindful is not ultimately needed.

Thanks for introducing me to the bottom-line contemplation

Edited March 26, 2016 by TwoDays

[Ajax]

@Neo I consider meditation to be a mental exercise. It helps make the mind become stronger,but it isn't a necessity.

However, you did mention that your mind gets chaotic. So appenrent you are not getting enough benifits from his videos. A chaotic mind isn't  a healthy mind so that is an issue you may want to solve.

 

You also mentioned you are too busy to meditate. I have to call you out on that. That is something stupid to say. That is like saying you are too busy too take 10-20 minutes to take care of yourself.

You can and should make your life just how you want it,Leo's videos can do alot to help do so. To build a beautiful garden you should remove the weeds and trash and so that is what you must do

[Truth]

@Neo Honestly, don't even fret, but just know your highest wisdom will eventually realize "Oh shit, this is actually really fucking important" the more you do personal development and work on yourself you will realize that. Keep on man.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Truth

[NoOne]

I'm very new to all of this, but it seems to me that coming to the truth is a difficult process, and probably a lot of people will never reach it, because it requires thinking in a way we are unaccustomed to.  Some people probably achieve that kind of thinking by meditation and discipline, others maybe find it another way.  I have meditated off and on throughout my life, but never really understood it's PURPOSE until now.  And believe me I'm pretty sure this is just the beginning for me, and I'm actually excited about being on this path and trying to live more mindfully in every moment.  At the moment, I can't honestly say what I should expect meditation should do for me.  Practicing mindfulness while engaged with life is way cooler IMHO.  I realize I'm using my reasoning faculties to grasp at the truth right now and that there is more to discover, but this right now, just being and existing in the moment knowing that it's okay to experience the feelings I have battled with and let them pass through me or examine them and learn from them...  That is enough that if I never practiced anything else in my whole life but being present in the moment I think I could find my way to permanent enlightenment and I think I will.  But it will be because I WANT to, not because someone is telling me to.    Maybe meditation doesn't work for everyone.  Maybe a really introspective life full of impossible choices and a little bit of cannabis are enough to grant someone a glimmer of the truth, and maybe if that person is really determined not to let that glimmer fade, they can make it a part of themselves.  I hate to see what should be a beautiful process turn into dogma and ritual.  Isn't that what we are escaping?

[Nathalie]

@Neo

23 hours ago, Neo said:

Haven't been meditating ... but I've been doing quite well listening to Leo's video and reading some books.

First of all, It seems you put much more "the work in" as just reading and listening to some videos..

Secondly, it helps you in your daily life, doesn't it? So where is some need to make more at the moment?

Maybe one day you will feel the necessity and you can begin than.. When it better fits in your life..

And.. There's surely no universal rule that one has to execute in order to go the "right way to enlightenment".. if it's actually your purpose..

Personally, I like and appreciate every little opening that happens to me while living consciously (with or without meditation) because it gives me a sense of freedom and increasing peace.. I even don't expect more.. Though it seems to never end..

I hope you enjoy your way too

[Guest]

@NeoFirst off, I apologize for hijacking the thread earlier, but it was necessary. 

My two cents is that mindfulness is meditation, and literally everything can be made into meditation, you don't need to sit down to meditate.

But, I dont need to get 8 hours sleep everyday either. I function a hell of a lot better on 8 hours rather than 6. Sitting down meditation is like this, its like a supercharged version of practicing day to day mindfulness, and in my opinion it is one of the best ways to learn to develop mindfulness. Why? In my experience theres like a base level of mindfulness that we live with. Sitting down meditation, when combined wth day to day activity mindfulness, helps to raise your overall level of base mindfulness. Kind of like how when learning guitar, you start by learning the techniques, and then learn to play songs. The further you can improve your overall techniques, the more complex songs you will be able to play. There are many ways to learn technique, including just learning as you play songs. But the guitar masters actually find time for the tediousness of sitting down in orser to learn the guitar technique itself that can THEN be applied to their songs. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by TwoDays

[Neo]

Hey all, I would love to reply more but I'm at work and I need to read it again later, but I'm glad for all the replies, I even stirred a rare debate on a section of the forum where everyone is "ONE" lol

@Ajax 

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However, you did mention that your mind gets chaotic. So appenrent you are not getting enough benifits from his videos. A chaotic mind isn't  a healthy mind so that is an issue you may want to solve.

I feel like I've let someone in my living room and they've told me what a state it is in, except it was may brain!!! lol

@MartineF

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First of all, It seems you put much more "the work in" as just reading and listening to some videos..

Yes, hmm, well. I've not had a very ordinary life. I can sit there and look at the clouds and think, we were meant to be here to experience all this separateness otherwise it's not possible and every hair on my body stands on end. These kind of things have gone on my whole life but I didn't know what to call them.

I also have been having, "I exist" moments my whole life and didn't know what to call them either. ;), really should have been saying "I am."

 

[Neo]

Well, I don't know if it's just me, but I've just been called "stupid" in Leo's latest video!

[Dodo]

20 minutes ago, Neo said:

Well, I don't know if it's just me, but I've just been called "stupid" in Leo's latest video!

you are