MM1988

Involuntary Celibacy: Focus in Internal or External?

26 posts in this topic

What would you do if you just suck with women in the way that you just cant find one that would think of you as more than friend for about a decade and its causing you massive emotional problems and depression in your everyday life.

 

The advice I got from Leos videos on this are contradicting themselves. On one hand you should go inside and work these issues out because you are creating these bad emotions yourself. You also should not need a relationship in the first place. On the other hand the solution thats often recommended is going into PUA, talking to a lot of girls etc. which would seem like chasing an external fix to me. So what should you do if you have this issue?

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I think that just taking action is going to be your best bet. You can waste a lot of time in your head mulling over it. But it's basically a comfort zone where you can continue to solidify your pessimistic outlook on your dating prospects. So, I recommend going out and meeting some people. Go to a club where you can find women who are looking for something fun or romantic. And then just get some experience, even if it's just a one-night stand. I feel like once you get past that initial hurdle, you'll be able to realize that the thoughts you're thinking are just limiting beliefs with no basis in reality. I'm sure that there's nothing about you inherently that is keeping you held back in this avenue other than your mentality surrounding this issue. 


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1 minute ago, Emerald said:

I think that just taking action is going to be your best bet. You can waste a lot of time in your head mulling over it. But it's basically a comfort zone where you can continue to solidify your pessimistic outlook on your dating prospects. So, I recommend going out and meeting some people. Go to a club where you can find women who are looking for something fun or romantic. And then just get some experience, even if it's just a one-night stand. I feel like once you get past that initial hurdle, you'll be able to realize that the thoughts you're thinking are just limiting beliefs with no basis in reality. I'm sure that there's nothing about you inherently that is keeping you held back in this avenue other than your mentality surrounding this issue. 

I went for the "external fix" in clubs and in my social circle for about 7 years with no results, for the last about 2 years where i discovered actualized.org im focus on the internal with dailty meditation and a little bit on the external if an oppurtunity arises. Would be interresting to know if you could overcome these negative emotions and you biological urges completely without needing the external fix because thats the direction I start to prefer.

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38 minutes ago, MM1988 said:

I went for the "external fix" in clubs and in my social circle for about 7 years with no results, for the last about 2 years where i discovered actualized.org im focus on the internal with dailty meditation and a little bit on the external if an oppurtunity arises. Would be interresting to know if you could overcome these negative emotions and you biological urges completely without needing the external fix because thats the direction I start to prefer.

My thought is that there must be an issue with how you're approaching. It might be the vibe you're giving off. Often times, men with low self-esteem who lack self-confidence, unconsciously put a lot of pressure onto women. This makes them very uncomfortable. 

For example, when I was 20, I went out to a jazz/cigar bar and I met this guy who was kind of nerdy looking and overweight. But he seemed cool at first. We were playing chess upstairs. I knew he was interested in me, and I wasn't completely not interested in him. Either way, I was enjoying his company.

But then he got really insecure about messing up the interaction with me. And I realized that he was putting too much emphasis on the interaction. Like I knew that he felt like I held his worth as a human being in my hands. 

So, this immediately scrubbed all potential for romance or even friendship from my mind, because I felt that pressure that he'd unintentionally put onto me by giving me that much power and significance over him even in just having met him. 

But he asked for my number, and I gave it to him. I didn't want to hurt his feelings. And I gave him my real number too.

Unfortunately, I was very poverty-stricken at the time. And I couldn't even afford to keep the lights on in my apartment. And so, I wasn't able to pay my phone bill, and I never used it anyway. 

But one night, a few months later, I was out playing my guitar on the street. That was how I made my money at the time. And he walks by and confronts me about giving him a fake number. And he was pretty confrontational and aggressive about it.

So, I told him that it wasn't a fake number. And that I was struggling financially. And I showed him my phone, which I still had (even though I couldn't use it). So, that he could see that I hadn't given him a fake one. So, the situation de-escalated.

Then, I get a text from him a few minutes later, and I ignored it. Too much baggage, too quick. 

If you've ever had a person try to be friends with you too quick, it's the same thing. You know that person desperately need a friend, because they don't have any. But you also know that if you agree to be their friend, they will put too much emphasis on the friendship too quick.

Edit: I guess I did have my phone back on at the time. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to text. Either way, my phone was unpaid very often. So, when I gave him the number, he got the message that the number had been disconnected.

Edited by Emerald

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@Emerald There is defenitely something about the way im behaving. But its nothing gross, just something subtle that makes me look asexual to girls. Its rather an internal issue I think but I dont know where to look for whats the issue. its just something about my whole behaviour. I dont think even the girls couldnt point at it.

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2 minutes ago, MM1988 said:

@Emerald There is defenitely something about the way im behaving. But its nothing gross, just something subtle that makes me look asexual to girls. Its rather an internal issue I think but I dont know where to look for whats the issue. its just something about my whole behaviour. I dont think even the girls couldnt point at it.

It could be that you feel limited to the current persona that you have. Maybe you feel like you'd be being inauthentic to come across any other way. So, I would focus toward creating an understanding of yourself as being competent and and normal, and building up a new persona that reflects that. And be willing to bluff a bit.

The thing that separates the average person from a person who is needy, is just the way they come across. Most people have crippling insecurities. But on some, it's more obvious. So, to get past it, you might even try creating an alter-ego of sorts. This is essentially what teenagers do when they create their identity. And if they do so in a healthy way, they will be able to fit in. But if they don't create a persona that has the ability to blend and look normal, they will run into problems

So, that's probably what's brought you to where you are now. You've not created a persona that's well-adjusted to the social landscape and its unique challenges. And your self-defeating thought processes keep you trapped in that ill-fitting persona.

So, all you have to do is create one that is well-adapted. Then, once you can bring yourself above water with your persona, you can build it up even further in whichever way you want. 

But the one thing to realize is that ALL personas are created. And you can create your persona any way you want. The sky is the limit. The canvas is yours to paint on. So, paint something new. 


Enrollment now open for my Shadow Work Group Class! Limited spots available. 

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Both!

See videos:

  • Paradoxes Of Personal Development
  • How To Deal With Confusion

You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Maybe you just want to be a loner.  Nothing wrong with that.  I’m kinda that way because I don’t like to compromise with too much of my time.  And sex isn’t really worth compromising my time either.  I am a solo flier, I don’t need relationships to be happy.  But I can talk to women no problem, I just have little interest in relationships.  I got too much going on with my own life.  If you really wanted a woman, you would find a way to get one.  Maybe you just prefer to be alone like me.  Sometimes that’s the issue.  Relationships sound great in theory, but deep down maybe you don’t want all the other stuff that comes with it.  Also, the women I have liked are few and far between.  They had that intellectual side where we just jived.  So, I would only want a woman like that anyway.  If I’m gonna compromise my life In a relationship with a woman, I want one who I can SYNERGIZE with on all levels, including my Life Purpose, otherwise it’s just a distraction to me.  Plus, for me, having kids would be a huge distraction, and women seem programmed to want kids.  I don’t wanna be that dude who ends up with kids just because he couldn’t keep his wiener under control.  I have a feeling I’ll meet an amazing women later on in life that I can really work with and grow with.  But right now, such a relationship would take more from me than add to me.  I’m totally cool flying solo and doing my work solo right now.  I’m happy being alone — and I can do whatever I want with my time.  I love that freedom.

Edited by Joseph Maynor

firstphilosophy.org

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Hang out with girls. Learn how we function. Then you will no longer see women as "females" but rather as human beings and friends to hang out with. That takes away your desperation. Makes you cool and comfortable in your own skin around girls. And that is very attractive. 

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@Samra My only concern with that is that I know a lot of guys who have tons of female friends but get no action whatsoever, theyre just the best friends. On the other hand my sexually sucessful friends barely have real friends of the opposite sex and are quite misogynistic.

 

@Feel Good which book?

Edited by MM1988

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1 hour ago, MM1988 said:

@Samra My only concern with that is that I know a lot of guys who have tons of female friends but get no action whatsoever, theyre just the best friends. On the other hand my sexually sucessful friends barely have real friends of the opposite sex and are quite misogynistic.

 

@Feel Good which book?

Yeah, you don't wanna end up in the friend zone.  You wanna make your intentions clear to the woman right away that you're seeking a sexual relationship with her.  That's on you if you fail to do that.  You gotta make your intentions clear to women right away.  Don't think you need to be her best friend before you can have a sexual relationship with her.  That's a surefire way to end up in the friend zone.  And this is where you need to have some confidence.  I think a lot of insecure guys make this mistake.  They think they need to win the woman over by being this great friend to her, and then she will fall in love with you and have sex with you.  That strategy is a disaster.  Just let the woman know right away that you're interested in a sexual relationship with her.  And then let her decide what she wants to do with that.  You need confidence.  Learn how to build some confidence.  Stop being ashamed of your sexuality.  Get your body and looks in order.  Get your finances in order.  Women, for the most part, don't like broke and fugly dudes.  I see middle-aged fat dudes all the time with women half their age -- because they dress well, have a good job, and aren't insecure.  So, make sure you get those down.  And stop putting women on a pedestal -- they're just humans like the rest of us.  You're getting way too mesmerized by sex to see that.  Take the hottest woman and have a conversation with her.  She's just a regular person like you are.  Treat her like a regular person, not like a dog sitting under her table waiting for a scrap of her food.  That is so off putting to women.  It makes you look desperate and creepy.  Women will appreciate you much more if you're just open about your real intentions from the giddy-up, which you probably think is creepy.  So, there are some counter-intuitive things about relationships like that.  This is why the 'nice guy' strategy is unsustainable with women.  It sounds like it would work in theory, but in practice it's a disaster.  It's a concealing of motives, and women know that.  It's basically fake -- you're trying to manipulate her for sex by being the 'nice guy' -- except it's an indirect strategy.  And this might be why women subconsciously pay these dudes back by trying to take advantage of them ('using' them) as well.  If you want to set yourself up for a clean and above-board sexual relationship with a woman, you need to tell her what you want from her and what she can expect from you right from the very beginning.  And that's just being 100% open and honest.  And you also have to be comfortable with your sexuality, which a lot of men aren't.  If you're not comfortable with your sexuality, that can also be a disaster with trying to enter a sexual relationship with a woman.  So, in that sense, maybe get some experience having a bit of sex.  Make sure you're a 'win' for her too if you want a high-quality sexual relationship with a woman.  And be assertive too and playful.  Those work great with women.  And don't act like one of her girlfriends.  That's a disaster.  Just be yourself and be confident, playful, and humble, and secure with your sexuality.  Women love men like that.  And if you think about it, what that boils down to is you're just being honest with them.  You're not being intimidated by sex or by them.  It's as if they aren't a threat to you or something you're trying to win over.  You're giving them the ultimate respect by not trying to manipulate them.  If you think about it, that's the basis of all great relationships, sexual or otherwise -- secureness within one's self -- not giving a shit to just be yourself 100% no matter who's around.

Edited by Joseph Maynor

firstphilosophy.org

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9 hours ago, Feel Good said:

Taking a leaf out of someone's book is an idiom. It means to learn lessons from a person's behaviours. :)

I want to help you with this. 

Making friends with women doesn't get you "friend zoned". 

Trying to get rapport and comfort as a way of manipulating her into giving you sex gets you friend zoned (if you have a lot going for you!) If you have nothing going for you, like the male in Emeralds story, then you won't even be friend zoned, because we can't even be friends with people who are that fragile. 

Nobody need be misogynistic with regards to the women in their lives. Just remember that if you two happen to be on a friendly basis and you discover that you have developed sexual feelings towards her then just be honest about that. 

Understand the subtle distinctions here? 

 

Making friends with women doesn't get you 'friend zoned' per se.  But if you want a sexual relationship with a woman, you need to make your intentions clear to her and be upfront with what you want from her.  Otherwise, you are setting yourself up to get friend zoned.  It's not a good strategy to get a sexual relationship out of a woman by acting like one of her many girlfriends in the hopes that she will come around to you.  There's a much more direct and sustainable strategy for getting into sexual relationships.  A lot of guys are just too insecure to be up front and confident about what they want from a particular woman and to communicate that to her clearly up front.

Edited by Joseph Maynor

firstphilosophy.org

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@MM1988  I do not believe you.

Either you are lying to us or you are doing something extremely offputting.

I know men who have extreme personal setbacks both emotionally and physically but still are able to get women. Either you have no standards on yourself, IE exercise, eat healthy, confidence, humor and so on or even if you don't have these things you are most likely not going out at all.

Most men in wheelchairs can get a woman, if a man like yourself, as you claim in previous posts that you are confident, hard working and generally good looking you must be either lying to us, or not going out and approaching women.

Under the very unlikely circumstance that I am wrong about this, go pay Todd Valentine to help you with your dating, take out a second mortage on your house if you need to get control over this.

Keep in mind that one of the most dangerous ideas of self-improvement especially when you are going for enlightenment is that you are going to get this crap about internal work, but you don't understand that this internal work is 50 times harder than learning about attraction and dating.

You can become an extremely skilled PUA in 6 months, most people who work on enlightenment don't reach it within 20 years.

Don't lie to yourself or us, go out and put standards on yourself and make it a rule that you go out at least 2 times a week and do 20 approaches each night, you will be drowing in the attention of women.

I say this with the hope of getting you pissed off, only because I was where you are now 10 years ago.

 

 

Edited by fireworld

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11 minutes ago, Feel Good said:

The way you express yourself here says a lot about you and your inner life.

Do you think other people are here to give something to you?

A conscious approach to relationships, sexual or not, are about expressing these innocent drives within us, that just develop naturally out of situations. 

I don't think it's the intent of a conscious person to try to "get" anything out of anybody, to be entirely honest with you. It sounds a little bit empty. 

 

 

You misquoted me.  And then you judged me rather harshly too.  I won't return the favor to you.  

Edited by Joseph Maynor

firstphilosophy.org

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@MM1988 To me attracting women is almost skillset that can be learnt, the reason i say that is because with us men we can become oblivious to the 'mating dance' and what women actually want, simply because unless we're incredibly attractive from a young age, we dont get women approaching us. Women, on the other hand will have to deal with men approaching from a very young age and are therefore a lot more experienced in knowing what turns them on or off. I say that because theres no shame in having to learn this as a skill, theres a lot you need to know and practice, confidence, congruency, non-neediness, putting yourself out there, but a lot of this will come if you make a commitment to be congruent to yourself. Im guessing that in interactions your doing what you think the woman wants you to do and possibly being 'the nice guy', point blank that doesnt work because its deceptive at its core, so if you can take this deception out of the equation and show your true self, as well some basics from PUA (non-manipulative) id probably recommend some rsd vids, then if you approach enough women theres no way you couldnt at least get some that are interested in you romantically.

Also the paradox of not needing a relationship or sex is true as well, you have to recognise that in reality it isnt actually that important, its just that we're constantly bombarded with how important it is. Because of this it stays in our mind and then when we actually talk to a female it suddenly becomes a 'high stakes' interaction that could change your life, fact is, its bullshit. Once you realise this and genuinely talk to people for fun or good vibes youll also notice a big change. Its like when youre a kid and you really want to stroke a dog, so you chase it and youre so desperate to touch it that your vibe scares it off and you never really get to stroke it, whereas if you just have a cool vibe and stay in one place, at some point the dog will come and say hello (not comparing women to dogs lol), but its the same thing with male and female interactions. If you have a cool vibe eventually someone will want to experience that vibe for longer. Give to give, dont think of what youre getting from it 

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10 hours ago, MM1988 said:

@Samra My only concern with that is that I know a lot of guys who have tons of female friends but get no action whatsoever, theyre just the best friends. On the other hand my sexually sucessful friends barely have real friends of the opposite sex and are quite misogynistic.

 

@Feel Good which book?

Don't be concerned at this stage. If you can't even hang out with girls, how you gonna sleep with them? I don't agree with this whole "friend zone" concept. This is a high school concept. Are you in a high school? No. Adult world function differently. As a woman, if a guy can't even talk to me like a normal human being, I won't let them get any close. Also, I don't like guys sending sexy signals right off the bat. It's creepy. It's way more charming when guys are cool and trustworthy and not desperate. Go learn how to hang out with girls. 

Edited by Samra

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By going out and talking to a lot of women , you are working on the internal at the same time  ! The internal changes when your external actions changes .. they are not two separate things .. but also you seem to me like a man who just go out without self correcting himself .. every time you go out try to learn something new and self correct yourself the next time .. don't just go out and do the same mistakes over and over again expecting a different results . 

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11 minutes ago, Samra said:

Don't be concerned at this stage. If you can't even hang out with girls, how you gonna sleep with them? I don't agree with this whole "friend zone" concept. This is a high school concept. Are you in a high school? No. Adult world function differently. As a woman, if a guy can't even talk to me like a normal human being, I won't let them get any close. Also, I don't like guys sending sexy signals right off the bat. It's creepy. It's way more charming when guys are cool and trustworthy and not desperate. Go learn how to hang out with girls. I have told this many times on this forum. 

I agree so much. If a guy comes right out with sexual/dating intentions toward me, it's such a turn-off. I much prefer a guy that I know who I have a platonic relationship with, who's maybe slightly flirtatious with me in an ambiguous way. And the more ambiguous the flirtation, the better. I don't want to know that he likes me. That's what builds up the tension is not knowing if he likes me like I like him. And I have to feel like he is selective with his sexual desires, and not just trying to find any woman, and wants me in particular. Self-control with sexuality is very important to me.

Then, I can wonder how he feels about me, and get excited at things unspoken. Then I can fantasize about the moment when things finally go in a romantic direction, which builds up more tension. A man who wears his sexuality on his sleeve, takes all the tension out of the situation. So, most of the time, it's too boring to feel anything other than platonic toward them. 

So, I agree. The person who posted would probably do well to get to know more women in a purely platonic way without needing it to move toward anything sexual. And eventually, someone will be interested in them if they aren't trying too hard. 


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I don't wanna start an argument here, but what women will tell you they want and what they actually want can be two different things.  I'm sure this is true for men too.  I learned long ago not to take dating advice from women.  And again, I'm not trying to attack anybody here.  I'm glad we all get to chime in on this.  And I'm not assuming you need to be as direct as I stated it.  That's what learning to flirt is all about.  I just laid my two cents on the issue starkly because that was the easiest way for me to communicate the information quickly and concisely in writing.  I never intended to say -- 'Hi I'm Bob, I wanna have a sexual relationship with you.'  That would be be creepy, I agree.  I just wanted to give homeboy my two cents from dealing with these issues for many years now. 

Just an example of the counter-intuitive nature of sexual relationships -- the fact that so many hot women fall for the asshole.  You wouldn't think that women would want an asshole douchbag as a sexual partner, and they probably wouldn't tell you that if you asked them.  But look at how many end up with these kinds of partners.  'The bad boy', right.  There's a deeper logic going on besides what they will tell you.  I just wanted to cite this an an example of the counter-intuitive nature of the Science of Dating from the male point of view.  As a man, you gotta realize that a lot of what you're been programmed with about the Science of Dating is probably wrong.  Just go with that assumption.  Try doing the opposite of what you normally do around women and take a mental note like a scientist would about what actually resonates with them and what doesn't. 

Edited by Joseph Maynor

firstphilosophy.org

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