It Goes Deeper Than You Might Think...

[Joseph Maynor]

5 minutes ago, Saumaya said:

Your point?

All confusion is Maya when it comes to reality.  Reality is the opposite of confusing.  Reality is right there.  If you're confused about reality, you're not Enlightened.  Enlightenment just is the removal of confusion about reality.  Moksha is the removal of ignorance, the removal of beliefs.  But there is no you that's removing the beliefs.  That's a linguistic metaphor taken literally.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Saumaya]

@Joseph Maynor Who is confused? What has this got to do with anything with what we were discussing?

[Joseph Maynor]

3 minutes ago, Saumaya said:

@Joseph Maynor Who is confused? What has this got to do with anything with what we were discussing?

I didn't think I was discussing anything with you until you butted into my comment to Shanmugam.   Why are you projecting on me?  You're not gonna "win" against me with such rhetoric, don't try.  Ok?

Edited February 24, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Saumaya]

1 minute ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I didn't think think I was discussing anything with you until you butted into my initial comment.

Nvm i guess. You must be talking to yourself then.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Saumaya

[Joseph Maynor]

2 minutes ago, Saumaya said:

Nvm i guess. You must be talking to yourself then.

Don't try to win haha~!

[Saumaya]

9 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Don't try to win haha~!

Thats the first time I have heard you make a joke

[Shanmugam]

36 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Language might be paradoxical, but reality is not.

ok.. but are you disagreeing with me on anything here in the discussion? Because, you are right about surrender and that there is really no control.... And I don't disagree. But if you disagree with anything that I said, let me know so that we can discuss..  

[Joseph Maynor]

@Saumaya Ahhh!   I am loosening up more now.

[Shanmugam]

@Joseph Maynor  We are using the words differently here.. I understand when you say there is really no choice..

But when I said there is a choice every moment, I used that phrase instead of saying 'I choose to do what to do every moment'... Because saying 'I choose to do what to do every moment' implies there is a chooser, a separate entity who thinks he has control. Enlightenment is the complete destruction of illusion that you are an entity separate from reality. So, the statement 'there is a choice every moment' is the appropriate statement for me to make in the context of my post. I didn't want to create an implication that after enlightenment one becomes a zombie and operates like a robot. 

If I hold an apple in my right hand and orange in my left hand and ask an enlightened person 'what do you want to pick'?, he will consciously pick one. A choice is being made here. You can call that as a choice of existence if you want. This is what I mean when I say there is a choice. But the idea 'I am the chooser' is gone! 

So, it is indeed a paradox in the language. I was trying to put the experience of non-duality into words as close as I can, as an attempt to answer the OP. Are you willing to discuss further and let me know if you agree or disagree?

Edited February 24, 2018 by Shanmugam

[Joseph Maynor]

8 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

@Joseph Maynor  We are using the words differently here.. I understand when you say there is really no choice..

But when I said there is a choice every moment, I used that phrase instead of saying 'I choose to do what to do every moment'... Because saying 'I choose to do what to do every moment' implies there is a chooser, a separate entity who thinks he has control. Enlightenment is the complete destruction of illusion that you are an entity separate from reality. So, the statement 'there is a choice every moment' is the appropriate statement for me to make in the context of my post. I didn't want to create an implication that after enlightenment one becomes a zombie and operates like a robot. 

If I hold an apple in my right hand and orange in my left hand and ask an enlightened person 'what do you want to pick'?, he will consciously pick one. A choice is being made here. You can call that as a choice of existence if you want. This is what I mean when I say there is a choice. But the idea 'I am the chooser' is gone! 

So, it is indeed a paradox in the language. I was trying to put the experience of non-duality into words as close as I can, as an attempt to answer the OP. Are you willing to discuss further and let me know if you agree or disagree?

Don't get too hung up on words.  It's more readily observed than that.  You guys are confusing yourselves with all these words -- all these rationalizations.  Reason can prove both everything and nothing.  

Edited February 24, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Shanmugam]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

Don't get too hung up on words.  It's more readily observed than that.  You guys are confusing yourselves with these words.

Who? Me? 

Should I say that this is your projection, the word you often use?

I don't have any problem or confusion... There is only one mistake you are making again and again. I understand that you understand. But you don't understand that I understand. Do you understand? 

You heard about enlightenment in 2015 after watching Leo's video, as per your own statement. I heard about enlightenment when I was 10 years old, really understood it when I was about 18 or 19 years old and surrendered to existence when I had my first glimpse in 2002... There is a full circle that one has to complete...

Don't get caught up in comparison. If it happens, be aware of it! There is no comparison exists in non-duality.

It is a great irony when people are trying to help me, when I am actually trying so hard to help them..

I am totally non-violent. But I am totally willing to kill that guy who discovered the concept of projection. ... (I know it is true; but it has been used way too much in this forum as an objection)

[Saumaya]

@Shanmugam @Joseph Maynor Im pretty sure its pointless to continue this conversation

[Shanmugam]

19 minutes ago, Saumaya said:

@Shanmugam @Joseph Maynor Im pretty sure its pointless to continue this conversation

I want to catch hold of him today...  That is the point of the conversation...If a seeker is seeking enlightenment, that is different. But being still a seeker, if one  goes on preaching to everybody, addressing 'you guys' in general and assuming things about them, while he himself is not yet out of duality is dangerous! This is like blind man leading to another blind man!

Many people in this forum think that enlightenment comes so easily in a year or two, after just reading some books and meditating everyday for a year or two. This is how 'sadhguru's are created. . When such people start teaching about non-duality, it creates more and more confusion! I have already seen enough of such people and the seekers who get totally confused with wrong teachings... He at least needs to understand where he is at in his journey. But he has convinced himself into thinking that enlightenment is something which goes on happening in his entire life. According to him, one can be less or more enlightened! It was very clear to me when he started the following thread:

This is one of the best ways to get trapped! Because now it gives him a license to preach to others. Now he can say 'guys, you guys don't understand yet! ' .. I first want to break this myth completely from this forum. A good spiritual community like this should not get confused by two or three people who want to take a huge control over others and create confusion. 

Whenever a person discovers a new insight, it is a common bias for such a typical person to think that nobody else except him understands it. This is where the word 'you guys' comes from! Sometimes such people require a huge blow to their egos to realize where they are at.

Andrew Cohen, a teacher of non-duality was teaching people by conducting satsang for many years. Just recently, a few years ago he realized that he was deluding himself. He apologized to everyone and said that he wants to give up his role as a teacher. Immediately, people started criticising him. But actually, he deserved a criticism before, when he was in the delusion (at least to give a blow). He deserves an appreciation once he declared that he was deluded into thinking he was enlightened. It takes enormous courage to do that! If it was someone else, he or she would have not disclosed it and would have continued the game.

@Joseph Maynor usually avoids discussing with me or replying to me, even if I answer a question in a thread that he himself started. He has done it more than 10 times now. If he doesn't want to acknowledge an answer that I post to his own thread and doesn't want to even have a discussion, then why open a thread?

One sign of non-duality is a complete loss of fear; a man on non-duality will not scared of getting offended. Because, no one can really touch his core. If he is willing, let him discuss with me freely. Unless he has the fear of getting offended, he wouldn't be avoiding a discussion. Let me see how friendly he is to others first and how open he is to have a conversation with me. I already told him very clearly in another thread about where he is stuck.

@Joseph Maynor.. Enlightenment is binary! It is not my belief or opinion.. It is not what I think.. It is the truth.. A person is either enlightened or not! A person can get a glimpse and may feel like he is getting closer and closer to enlightenment. At this stage, it is very easy to start to think that enlightenment is not binary. But the seeking certainly ends at one point!  Just by the nature of questions you are asking and the posts you make, not only me but a few people who are advanced enough can clearly see that you are living in duality. May be you are more dedicated than others. But don't allow your ego to derive a sense of identity from this dedication.. 

[Saumaya]

@Shanmugam True, a person's core is never affected after enlightenment. I have noticed that too.

[TheEnlightenedWon]

@Shanmugam @Saumaya

Maybe you guys can help me understand something...

I had an experience last year that lasted a about a month where my body was "destroyed" by the energy of God and I became all that is. Eventually, the experience ended. Since then, similar experiences have reoccured several times - mostly after smoking weed and meditating. The experiences had different elements at different times - sometimes infinity/infinite love, sometimes the sensation of being all that is, sometimes experiencing a what feels like another person's ego including their thoughts and past, or seeing through people's surface reality into the true beauty underneath.

I have since stopped smoking weed.

I feel as though I am an awareness with an Ego inside of me. Sometimes my awareness drifts and I become identified with the Ego inside.  When I am aware of identifying with Ego, I can easily let go and just enjoy being. I still have "bad" habits and thought patterns such as procrastination or a sensation of minor irritation at another person. I don't view these as problems, and they seem to resolve themselves on observation.

For the most part, the feeling of seeking is gone - whether seeking Enlightenment or anything else. I can feel reality flowing through me - sometimes stronger and sometimes more faintly - but I do not actively experience the full realizations of it that I have had in the past.

Is this what people call Enlightenment? There seems to be a clearer view of reality that I experienced in the past and no longer do.

Edited February 24, 2018 by TheEnlightenedWon

[Shanmugam]

4 hours ago, TheEnlightenedWon said:

@Shanmugam @Saumaya

Maybe you guys can help me understand something...

I had an experience last year that lasted a about a month where my body was "destroyed" by the energy of God and I became all that is. Eventually, the experience ended. Since then, similar experiences have reoccured several times - mostly after smoking weed and meditating. The experiences had different elements at different times - sometimes infinity/infinite love, sometimes the sensation of being all that is, sometimes experiencing a what feels like another person's ego including their thoughts and past, or seeing through people's surface reality into the true beauty underneath.

I have since stopped smoking weed.

I feel as though I am an awareness with an Ego inside of me. Sometimes my awareness drifts and I become identified with the Ego inside.  When I am aware of identifying with Ego, I can easily let go and just enjoy being. I still have "bad" habits and thought patterns such as procrastination or a sensation of minor irritation at another person. I don't view these as problems, and they seem to resolve themselves on observation.

For the most part, the feeling of seeking is gone - whether seeking Enlightenment or anything else. I can feel reality flowing through me - sometimes stronger and sometimes more faintly - but I do not actively experience the full realizations of it that I have had in the past.

Is this what people call Enlightenment? There seems to be a clearer view of reality that I experienced in the past and no longer do.

Only you can say for sure if your seeking has ended. Is there still a craving for 'becoming'? What kind of self-agenda or to-do list you have for future? Do you still feel that you have to get somewhere?

What @Saumaya has stated in his thread 'Post  enlightenment observations' is the same as what I would have described if someone has asked for my observations on my own transformation. You can recognize such reports easily even though they are being conveyed in different words. The feeling of lightness in the body, the absence of distinction between inside and outside, a complete sense of freedom and fulfillment etc are some of the things which are common among such reports.

But anyway, once the seeking is over, you will be sure that your 'personal'  journey is over; Your story will completely lose its significance and you will not need any external confirmation. 

Also, since you mentioned about smoking weed, I can tell you that weed can sometimes give you a sense of fake enlightenment. If you smoke weed very frequently like once in a day and also meditating, it may be very convincing but it only lasts until the effects of the weed completely fades away.That may take about a month, sometimes.. So it is also very important to see how long it has been since you stopped smoking weed.

Above all, one thing is very important! Enlightenment doesn't require an external confirmation.

 

[Ether]

@Shanmugam You really dont like Sadhguru, ey?

[Ether]

@Shanmugam Tbh, nobody actually knows when we will reach enllightenment, so saying it will take 2 years or 20, is equally incorrect

[Shanmugam]

2 minutes ago, Ether said:

@Shanmugam You really dont like Sadhguru, ey?

It is not about 'like' or 'dislike'... I am more concerned about the abusive behaviour that goes on among his followers.  I wrote this yesterday, read this: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Indian-Christians-so-paranoid-about-Sadhguru/answer/Shanmugam-P-12

[Ether]

1 minute ago, Shanmugam said:

It is not about 'like' or 'dislike'... I am more concerned about the abusive behaviour that goes on among his followers.  I wrote this yesterday, read this: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Indian-Christians-so-paranoid-about-Sadhguru/answer/Shanmugam-P-12

Hey man! Chill!

 

Dont you know we dont have control over others?