Why do appearences exist?

[Alex K]

@egoless I dunno, my oficial position - lets get enlightened all together and then look at all these questions once more. As egoes we are too limited to see to them. And it seems to me this was done purposefully 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Alex K

[LaucherJunge]

@egoless
Let me describe it with a metaphor to you.
God is an absolutely infinite screen, there is an infinite number of pixels on an infinite screen obviously but there is also an infinite number of possible appearences a pixel can take, this is basically the absolute infinity. Every single form is potentially there on every single of those pixels which are infinitely many aswell.
Why is such a stupid question, there is no why in something that is without any limits, because a why would limit it automatically, no words can describe it because they are also just a limit to something which doesen't know limits. And even my mentioned words in that sentence already limited it by saying things like know and something, now again saying "it" limited "it" you can't describe the only true subject with words because words always point at something have context or correlation with something that automatically limits that subject, which again it isn't even a subject... silence.

[egoless]

1 minute ago, Alex K said:

@egoless I dunno, my oficial position - lets get enlightened all together and then look at all these questions once more. As egoes we are too limited to see to them. And it seems to me this was done purposefully 

I don't seek Enlightenment described by other people. I am in search of the Truth and whenever I finally understand the ultimate truth I will call it my Enlightenment even if it is completely different from all the teachings of traditional Enlightenment notion. Even if it is that earth is flamingo.

[Alex K]

@egoless But what is your method to find the Truth? Why do you think you progress?

Are you uniquely talented? 

[egoless]

@LaucherJunge OK explain why you are so sure that it is infinite. Are you Enlightened? ok than be silent. If you are not Enlightened then tell me what makes you believe that it is infinite.

[egoless]

1 minute ago, Alex K said:

@egoless But what is your method to find the Truth? Why do you think you progress?

Are you uniquely talented? 

My method is questioning everything and following the path which seems the most authentic at the moment of NOW. Today it is meditation and inquiry but tomorrow if I find new answers it may be prayer to the god or doing extreme sports. 

[alyra]

1 minute ago, egoless said:

discussions of me with myself.

careful, better to say "we" than "me" - the self is not YOU, it is not-you: the belief that you are you and that there is nothing beyond your being there, is NOT the understanding that all is as one. Necessarily there are things in which we aren't aware of, because our awareness is limited in order to exist at all. this is the trick. in the life that we see before us, we know that there is an infinity of possible awareness's we will never obtain, look to the stars! we can see that they are there, we see evidence of their existence, and yet we can never be existent as the stars exist. we can come up with ideas about how atoms are a true thing, yet we cannot truly be the atom. at the best, we can be a human who pretends to be the atom. or we can be an awareness that once thought it was human, which now thinks it is an atom, which later will return to being a human, and then trick itself into believing it knows what it is like to be an atom. but the only way to be an atom, is to have no true capability to understand what it is like to be anything else but an atom - just as we have no true capability to understand what it is like to be anything else but a human. we can pretend to know and come up with reasonable claims as to what alternative experiences of awareness are - but no matter how authentic that belief can be, it is still just belief.

maybe it'll be easier to understand what others are if you imagine that they are a fabricated dream that you do not understand. and then from that basis, work towards realizing that instead they are a trick of the mind to process information on a deeper level than just the first level of direct awareness, a way of storing memory. and then from there, work towards seeing that you are just as fragile as they appear to be, that in an instant those dreams could shatter the dream that is you just as quickly as the other way around. in fact, we all shatter the dream of each other on a regular basis - move on with the day, forget (temporarily) of the existence of some individual.

this is the nature of duality within nonduality. existence is nondual, but an essential part of experiencing existence is duality. how can you experience something if it is all one thing? you can only experience something if one thing experiences and the other thing is ethe experience. this is duality! nonduality is to realize that the experiencer and the experience are as one. the light projected onto the screen is as one. to stop seeing the screen or the light or the light projected on the screen at all, as seeing that is that!

2 hours ago, egoless said:

@Joseph Maynor @Leo Gura You know what makes me suspicious the most? How the fk everything is so precisly and mathematically calculated in this world if there is no reason? If this is only illusion why does bee know how to create honey? Why does earth turn around the sun in the perfect distance for the living conditions. Why there is no just random illusion happening and why there is such a connected system. No guys... there should be a deeper meaning to all these. And I am sure there should be an answer on the question why?

of course the world has consistency. it would just be a dream if it weren't consistent. oops but, it is a dream but you can make it inconsistent. in fact, necessarily it is inconsistent, lol, you say that the math explains why this or that or the other thing, well the math also fails to explain those or these or this other other thing. you just weigh on the consistency more than you do on the inconsistency, in order to convince yourself that reality is different from a dream. that's a fair enough thing to do. it is different, but not as different as you think. both are just a belief of experience, taking an observation and applying deep meaning to it and searching for consistency to rely on.

 

please continue to rely on consistence, but work to start to notice that its consistency is just as illusory as its inconsistency, and its inconsistencies are just as real as its consistencies.

 

(wait, did I say anything in this post? I hope I made any sense...)

 

[LaucherJunge]

@egoless
I am not enlightened and I don't need to be to see that words are not sufficient to describe it. Infinity itself is already way too abstract to give explenations about it, what do you expect am I supposed to say about infinity with words that are limited? How can you describe something and give a reason to something that doesen't exist?
Are you aware right now? What is there to say about being aware? It just is, there is no words or feelings that can possibly ever grasp it, it is a whole other dimension of being, even this term dimension of being is so stupidly limited already it is neither a dimension nor is it being because both are just words and objects.
So to bring this to an end what makes me think that this "infinity" exists is that no number of objects can possibly describe the subject which means that there is an infinite number of objects below that subject as an expression of it. Here again expression and below are not sufficent words.

[Shin]

16 minutes ago, LaucherJunge said:

@egoless
I am not enlightened and I don't need to be to see that words are not sufficient to describe it. Infinity itself is already way too abstract to give explenations about it, what do you expect am I supposed to say about infinity with words that are limited? How can you describe something and give a reason to something that doesen't exist?
Are you aware right now? What is there to say about being aware? It just is, there is no words or feelings that can possibly ever grasp it, it is a whole other dimension of being, even this term dimension of being is so stupidly limited already it is neither a dimension nor is it being because both are just words and objects.
So to bring this to an end what makes me think that this "infinity" exists is that no number of objects can possibly describe the subject which means that there is an infinite number of objects below that subject as an expression of it. Here again expression and below are not sufficent words.

Which also means there can't be proof about it.

[Will Bigger]

No reason.

[WaveInTheOcean]

wrong threadxD

Edited November 29, 2017 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

2 hours ago, egoless said:

@Alex K OK let me tell you what I call the god and why do I consider some of Christianity teachings the closest to the Truth. I consider god to be ultimately being consciousness which exists infinitely. It created the reality within itself and separation within itself to experience something rather than nothing. However the ultimate reason of his creation is love and life - thus experience. That's why I think that there is ultimate good and evil. Killing is ultimate evil because it is opposite of love and life - thus experience. However, Leo described this differently. Here I don't agree with him.

Egoless. You are completely wrong. And let me tell you why. And I mind you: I speak from direct experience: Yesterday, I smoked a lot of weed while I was eating the most delicious nacho chips, I've ever tasted in my life. Suddenly, God himself revealed himself to me. God was directly in front of me. I was speaking to him! My mind was blown. I decided to ask him this question: "What is the ultimate reason for your creation of reality, God?" . God quickly and promptly answered: "The ultimate reason I created reality is so that people like you can enjoy eating nacho chips. Nacho chips is the only reason for existence my friend."  Then he disappeared.

And again; I'm speaking from direct experience here. So I am right. You are wrong. Nacho chips is the reason for existence. And I'm eating them as I write this. It feels good man. I just bought 100 bags of them.

Edited November 29, 2017 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

@egoless

Quote

"I can touch the wall and it is solid. - So far this is my proof that the universe may be material."

Contemplate deeper my friend. (Or just listen to Alan Watts, he'll do the contemplation for you, I think he's better suited for it than both you and me.)

The wall is only solid in relation to your soft hand. The wall for itself is not solid.
There are many small neutrino particles flying through that wall every second. To them the wall is transparent.
If your hand was made of gold instead of flesh (but still contained feeling-neurons), perhaps the wall would be rather soft to you?  
The wall for iself is literally nothing, it's not a wall for itself, it's nothing.

You - as a human organism - evoke the appearance of a wall when the photons it reflects reaches your retina and then the visual cortex in the back of your skull. It's only a wall in relation to you. You can also evoke the appereance of a wall by touching it with your hands.

So you evoke the external world as a human organism. But realize, that it goes both ways. The external world evokes you as a human organism. You only know yourself in relation to the outer world. So both you and the external world is nothing. But together it's something (a happening, a proces).

It's a proces. You can't have one without the other. The external world only exist because you exist. And vice versa. Just like the south pole of a magnet only exists because the north pole exists.

Quote

"So far the only thing you know is you bump your head in the wall and you end up in hospital. Call it hallucination or not you still end up fucked up. "

What you call your body ends up in the hospital. And your body gets fucked up. Even so, the body is not fucked up in itself. It's only fucked up in relation to a conceptual human ideal that says that a human head shouldn't bleed and have bumps on it.
 

Quote

I consider god to be ultimately being consciousness which exists infinitely.

But that is you, dude. You are IT (God). Therefore YOU don't really get fucked up by bumping 'your head' into a 'wall'. Nothing happens to YOU!
Except, just like when you're completely immersed in watching a good action movie and one of the character smashes his fist into another character's face, you surely believe that that character got his head smashed good.
But after the movie is done, you're aware that it was just a movie, and that all the violence was just fake, acting and illusional theater tricks.
The same principles governs the "ego", WaveInTheocean, and the "ego", egoless  

Quote

It created the reality within itself and separation within itself to experience something rather than nothing. 

It's such a big misconception among human minds that it's possible to experience 'nothing'. Look, ACTUAL 'nothing' means 'no experience.'
You cannot experience nothing, because nothing = 'not an experience' or 'no experience'.
Many people are afraid to die primarily because they imagine it will be like their ego being locked up in dark box for eternity with no sensations except darkness and silence, i.e. what they mistake for 'nothing'. What happens to you when you die can only be the same experience you had when you were born.

All there exist is indeed experience of something. There is nothing outside experience. Sitting in a chair as philosopher and building conceptual frameworks in your head - even that is an experience.

Quote

However the ultimate reason of his creation is love and life - thus experience. That's why I think that there is ultimate good and evil. Killing is ultimate evil because it is opposite of love and life - thus experience.

First of all, you speak of God as an entity separate to you, outside to you. God is not that. God is you, whether you like it or not.
But since we're having this discussion and pretending to be separate ego's, let's just for fun talk of our real selves (God) as God, as a 3rd party.

You say the reason of his creation is life (let's ignore the love part for now). Do you realize that there would be no creation without life? In other words, life and creation is the same thing. This universe, which you find yourself to be in, which you feel alien to, which you don't feel like you belong to, that exact universe only exist because you exist (and vice versa). 

In other words, it's like saying 'God created life because of life'. And that's right. There is no meaning what so ever behind your existence as 'egoless', except you exist for kicks, for fun, for love, for entertainment, just as a child create a sandcastle for no reason, he just does it because he likes creating stuff. In the same way, God likes creating stuff, and he created this Universe which 'peoples', just like an appletree 'apples'.

Realize that all this entertainment includes all your percieved sorrow and hatred in life. That's part of the drama of life. That's what makes it exciting. That we feel like separate ego's who's survival is important. But your survival is not important except for the importance you put in it. It's not important because you don't exist in the first place as an ego. There is no you, except the you as God, which is eternal.

Your logic/metaphysics are so flawed even a average 7-year old could point out the holes in it to you.

For example, you say that God created the world because of love and life. And then you say that 'killing' is the ultimate evil because it's opposite of life and love. But why did God include 'killing' and other sorts of evil in the world then? 

Look. Think about it. Death and life goes together like the back and front of a coin goes together. You can't have one without the other. You only exist as 'egoless' now because you once died as another person/being. When we are born we forget everything, and that's the beauty of it. Life would be fucking boring if we could live for eternity. Life is fascinating and exciting only because it's all so fresh and new to us. Look at kids, for them it's super fascinating because it's even fresher to them.

So there is nothing wrong with death. Absolutely nothing. In the grand scale that is. For of course as a human being we're programmed to fear death. So therefore it's smart to create laws and morals/ethics which say 'killing is bad/evil', because that will make us all happier if we don't have to fear getting shot in the street.

There is no ultimate good and evil. There is relative good and evil. Relative because it's invented by you, or maybe you unconsciously buy it from the cultural ego that is society.

Again your metaphysics are retarded (sorry to say) because if God only created the world because of love and life, why in the heck would he also include people like Hitler in his world?  

God does all sort of things. God is you. He builds sandcastles for fun like a child does. Some turn out ugly, some turn out beautiful, but they're all made out of love. Real love. Not the egoic love you're talking about.

Edited November 29, 2017 by WaveInTheOcean

[egoless]

@WaveInTheOcean you noob why do you enjoy nachos??? Because you want to kill them? No because you love them and because you love experiencing the taste. Read again what I wrote carefully... 

[WaveInTheOcean]

12 minutes ago, egoless said:

@WaveInTheOcean you noob why do you enjoy nachos??? Because you want to kill them? No because you love them and because you love experiencing the taste. Read again what I wrote carefully... 

I have read it carefully. I don't eat nachos. The post was obv a joke:D

Read my new, longer post carefully, my friend. It's more serious=D

[egoless]

@WaveInTheOcean I know that you don't eat nachos. and I know you meant serious that's why my answer was serious as well. dwell deeper into it  

In fact me and you are talking roughly about the same meaning and you still call me wrong. The example you brought directly proves what I said before.

Edited November 29, 2017 by egoless

[WaveInTheOcean]

3 minutes ago, egoless said:

@WaveInTheOcean I know that you don't eat nachos. and I know you meant serious that's why my answer was serious as well. dwell deeper into it  

lol

Are you vegetarian/vegan or do you eat meat?

[egoless]

5 minutes ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

lol

Are you vegetarian/vegan or do you eat meat?

I eat eggs, veggies, fruits, nuts, buckwheat, mushrooms, honey, oatmeal with coconut milk. Drink water and wine with dark chocolate. That's the only food I eat - boring? yes. Tasty? Sometimes. Why? because I think it's healthy.

Edited November 29, 2017 by egoless

[WaveInTheOcean]

Quote

We define (and so come to feel) the individual in the light of our narrowed "spotlight" consciousness which largely ignores the field or environment in which he is found. "Individual" is the Latin form of the Greek "atom"—that which cannot be cut or divided any further into separate parts. We cannot chop off a person's head or remove his heart without killing him. But we can kill him just as effectively by separating him from his proper environment. This implies that the only true atom is the universe—that total system of interdependent "thing-events" which can be separated from each other only in name. For the human individual is not built as a car is built. He does not come into being by assembling parts, by screwing a head on to a neck, by wiring a brain to a set of lungs, or by welding veins to a heart. Head, neck, heart, lungs, brain, veins, muscles, and glands are separate names but not separate events, and these events grow into being simultaneously and interdependently. In precisely the same way, the individual is separate from his universal environment only in name. When this is not recognized, you have been fooled by your name. Confusing names with nature, you come to believe that having a separate name makes you a separate being. This is—rather literally—to be spellbound.

Quote

Every individual is a unique manifestation of the Whole, as every branch is a particular outreaching of the tree. To manifest individuality, every branch must have a sensitive connection with the tree, just as our independently moving and differentiated fingers must have a sensitive connection with the whole body. The point, which can hardly be repeated too often, is that differentiation is not separation. The head and the feet are different, but not separate, and though man is not connected to the universe by exactly the same physical relation as branch to tree or feet to head, he is nonetheless connected—and by physical relations of fascinating complexity. The death of the individual is not disconnection but simply withdrawal. The corpse is like a footprint or an echo—the dissolving trace of something which the Self has ceased to do.

Quote

Just as no thing or organism exists on its own, it does not act on its own. Furthermore, every organism is a process: thus the organism is not other than its actions. To put it clumsily: it is what it does. More precisely, the organism, including its behavior, is a process which is to be understood only in relation to the larger and longer process of its environment. For what we mean by "understanding" or "comprehension" is seeing how parts fit into a whole, and then realizing that they don't compose the whole, as one assembles a jigsaw puzzle, but that the whole is a pattern, a complex wiggliness, which has no separate parts. Parts are fictions of language, of the calculus of looking at the world through a net which seems to chop it up into bits. Parts exist only for purposes of figuring and describing, and as we figure the world out we become confused if we do not remember this all the time.

Quote

How is it possible that a being with such sensitive jewels as the eyes, such enchanted musical instruments as the ears, and such a fabulous arabesque of nerves as the brain can experience itself as anything less than a god? And, when you consider that this incalculably subtle organism is inseparable from the still more marvelous patterns of its environment - from the minutest electrical designs to the whole company of the galaxies - how is it conceivable that this incarnation of all eternity can be bored with being?

Quote

The illusion that organisms move entirely on their own is immensely persuasive until we settle down, as scientists do, to describe their behavior carefully. Then the scientist, be he biologist, sociologist, or physicist, find very rapidly that he cannot say what the organism is doing unless, at the same time, he describes the behavior of its surroundings. Obviously, an organism cannot be described as walking just in terms of leg motion, for the direction and speed of this walking must de described in terms of the ground upon which it moves. Furthermore, this walking is seldom haphazard. It has something to do with food-sources in the area, with the hostile or friendly behavior of other organisms, and countless other factors which we do not immediately consider when attention is first drawn to a prowling ant. The more detailed the description of our ant’s behavior becomes, the more it has to include such matters as density, humidity and temperature of the surrounding atmosphere, the types and sources of its food, the social structure of its own species,  and that of neighboring species with which it has some symbiotic or preying relationship.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

"The greater the scientist, the more he is impressed with his ignorance of reality, and the more he realizes that his laws and labels, descriptions and definitions, are the products of his own thought. They help him to use the world for purposes of his own devising rather than understand and explain it."

Egoless, you have to leave this forum, and do some LSD/shrooms or just meditate for 10.000 hours. Then come back. You think you can think yourself into some truth. Let me be the first one to tell you. You can't.

[egoless]

@WaveInTheOcean You want to get rid of me nachos? Fuckin hell dude!