Why Is The Distinction Between "real" And "unreal" An Illusion?

[Joseph Maynor]

Reality = Being.  Reality is real.  Unreal seems to also apply like in the case of thought-stories.

[Truth]

The distinction is what is literally there vs what you think is there. If you go back to flattening the illusion in Leo's Illusory nature of thought video this can help you with separatting truth from appearances as close as you can, but eventually you're gonna have to go beyond that because some things literally can't be described, you'll end up just turning it into something it's not.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Truth

[Leo Gura]

@Joseph Maynor Being is undefinable. It is neither real nor unreal, neither illusory nor non-illusory, neither existent nor non-existent. All of these are just concepts and labels. All language is relative and works by positing dualities. But being is just ONE. You cannot name it anything because it has no name. To call it by any name is to not be aware that the name you give it is itself just more undefined being.

Naming things is a game. The problem is that the mind gets lost in this naming game, thinking it's understanding things when really it's just slapping names on things. Naming a thing doesn't get you any closer to understanding what it is existentially.

Calling something "energy", or "matter", or "physical", or "evil", or "an illusion", or "spiritual", or "material", or anything else, doesn't mean anything. It says nothing about the underlying phenomena. All it does is weave a web of concepts, an augmented reality. It creates relationships between your labels which give you the illusion of understanding.

Drop the desire to label things.

[AleksM]

@Leo Gura This is how I look at it.

Being=essence (every essence in existence)

Beings= essence (one essence out of an infinite number of essences)

Being and beings = one

 

[Amit]

@Joseph Maynor thought stories are not real but the thoughts are real. Mind creates thought that can be translated to reality. Till a thought is not out there, its content is unreal. But the sensations in mind and emotions are real while thinking. Now what are you reading are my thoughts which are translated to this screen and this is real. But its content what I am trying to say by these symbols may or may not be real out there.

[Joseph Maynor]

23 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Joseph Maynor Being is undefinable. It is neither real nor unreal, neither illusory nor non-illusory, neither existent nor non-existent. All of these are just concepts and labels. All language is relative and works by positing dualities. But being is just ONE. You cannot name it anything because it has no name. To call it by any name is to not be aware that the name you give it is itself just more undefined being.

Naming things is a game. The problem is that the mind gets lost in this naming game, thinking it's understanding things when really it's just slapping names on things. Naming a thing doesn't get you any closer to understanding what it is existentially.

Calling something "energy", or "matter", or "physical", or "evil", or "an illusion", or "spiritual", or "material", or anything else, doesn't mean anything. It says nothing about the underlying phenomena. All it does is weave a web of concepts, an augmented reality. It creates relationships between your labels which give you the illusion of understanding.

Drop the desire to label things.

Thank you Leo!  You tailored that to me, I can see.  

Edited September 22, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

22 hours ago, Amit said:

@Joseph Maynor thought stories are not real but the thoughts are real. Mind creates thought that can be translated to reality. Till a thought is not out there, its content is unreal. But the sensations in mind and emotions are real while thinking. Now what are you reading are my thoughts which are translated to this screen and this is real. But its content what I am trying to say by these symbols may or may not be real out there.

You are part of my dream.  That's what this is to me.  You're part of me.  You're one of the happenings that I am aware of.  I'm also aware of these words now.  They almost look like skeletons.  And I love you!  You're a sage.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

Gotcha Maxx.  It's because any concept would be a part of Being.  This is nothing but Being.  And Being is no-thing.  Thank you!

I wanna make one point here which is not always clarified properly: just because it would have to be always said.  This may appear to be some kind of logical exercise or conceptual exercise -- but really the language is tracking the awareness here, not the other way around.  Does that make sense?   You're not gonna become enlightened by grokking theory alone. It doesn't work like that.  So, when I talk in theory-cliches, the sentences always track what I am already aware of.  But that doesn't do shit for you, see?  You gotta look into this stuff yourself by examining your reality yourself.  There's no easy, primrose-path around doing this introspective work.  Awareness is much more important than theory.  But theory is very important too. 

[Joseph Maynor]

@Truth Wow.  Beautiful and succinct explanation.  Thank you!

Edited September 22, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Amit]

2 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

You are part of my dream.  That's what this is to me.  You're part of me.  You're one of the happenings that I am aware of.  I'm also aware of these words now.  They almost look like skeletons.  And I love you!  You're a sage

@Joseph Maynor

if we use "sage" to label most conscious beings, I'm no sage.

yeah but there are times when there is absolute authenticity comes and then there is no usual me, I become awareness. but it's not like that always. I become less conscious often.

language is a powerful tool to flow not only information of all kind but meta knowledge too. Obviously it is a construction and often misunderstood by those who don't do hard work to understand and just download it their minds.

meta knowledge needs to be experienced to understood and require a fully conscious being.

[Nahm]

I am you and you are me,

and we are not a thing.

❤️

[Highest]

Reality is simply experience, a human being is a being who experiences the ''world''. Now in my opinion, everything that is experienced is real, no matter what it is as long as it is experienced it's real. Which means reality is multi-dimensional, multi-subjective, but it's all true - reality cannot be put into a box, nor is it right to deny someone's experience of reality and accept another one's. Who decides what reality is, and who can objectify it? Only fools. That's being, it's One but reality is not just ONE. Take a pill and your whole reality changes, smoke weed for over a year and do spiritual practice like me and you will be labeled psychotic after having the ultimate spiritual breakthrough. Why? Because that's the west for you, that's their logic here in these institutions.

Anyhow, most have an ordinary experience of reality, but isn't that reality too? And a person with psychosis or schizophrenia may experience reality slightly or a lot more different, but isn't that reality as well, isn't his experience his experience of reality valid, just like anyone else? Reality is multi-dimensional, there is no way it can be put in a box, no way. 

[Thomas Razzeto]

@Joseph Maynor @Leo Gura

[All of this is just my opinion and I celebrate the fact that everyOne gets to choose what they want to believe and how they want to live their life. Hooray for that!]

What is unreal

Okay, let’s start with the easy one: What is unreal? I like to use an example that is meant to humorous. I put it on the table because it makes a good point and perhaps the humor will help you remember it as a good example. Here it is: The pink elephant in your pocket is unreal. It does not exist in any way whatsoever. Yes, of course you are now thinking about a pink elephant in your pocket but let’s be clear. That thought now exists as a thought alone and still there is no pink elephant in your pocket. Very simple.

An illusion is something that exists in a deceptive way

An illusion is something that exists in a deceptive way. So in order for something to exist as an illusion, it has to both 1) exist and 2) exist in a way that points to an idea which is false.  The sun seems to travel across the sky throughout the day. And yet the true reality of the situation is that virtually all of that apparent motion is caused by the earth spinning on its axis. So the idea that it is the motion of the sun that is giving rise to the apparent motion we witness is false.

And here is an important point: All good illusions are persistent. Even when we discover the true nature of the reality at hand, it still seems like the false idea is true. So even though we understand the spinning of the earth, it still seems as if the sun moves across the sky. And I think it is perfectly okay to talk as if that is the case. For example, it is fine to ask you if you saw the sunset yesterday, even though that implies that it is the sun that is moving (setting). We are just speaking from the perspective of our own experience, and this is valid and the communication is clear. We all know what we mean.

But notice how frequently people use the word illusion and then later reveal that they think it is something that does not exist in any way whatsoever. This often happens when people talk about time. They might say something like “Time is an illusion,” and then a minute or two later, they will add “Well, since time does not exist we shouldn’t worry about it” (or whatever). See the slip-up? That is not the correct use of the word “illusion.” Ordinarily I am relaxed about how people speak but for our purpose in this example, there is great benefit in being more precise.

A similar thing happens with dreams and movies. You hear people say “Oh, thank God it wasn’t real; it was just a dream.” Or “That was just a movie; it wasn’t real.” But we should really say that it was real as a dream or it was real as a movie. Yes, a movie exists as a fabricated fictional story. So it is real as fiction; it exists as fiction. If the movie did not exist, we could not watch it. Likewise, a dream is certainly real. It is experientially real for the person witnessing it.

Now we all know that movies and dreams are not real in the same way that our ordinary reality is real. If the movie is about a murder, the real police will not show up and arrest the actor since no one was really killed. It was just an act of pretending. And yet that act still exists as an act of pretending. So the movie can be said to exist “one level down,” so to speak. It is just a pretending and all the fabricated roles can be dropped at any time. They are nonessential to the existence of the actors and actresses. But those roles are essential to the movie, of course. When we “buy into” the movie as we watch it or if we are asleep and dreaming without realizing it is a dream, the movie and dream are tricking us into believing that they are “more real” than they actually are, so to speak. Or more correctly, we are not recognizing that they are real as a movie and as a dream.

God and creation - Going a little deeper

Speaking of acting, God comes forward as all of creation in a way that is very similar to an actor coming forward as a character. I use this metaphor a lot, as you will see in a minute.

I should start this section with some of my opinions, some of my definitions.

God is Source-Awareness. God is not an object or a thing and cannot be perceived in any way whatsoever. This Awareness perceives but it cannot be perceived. God has two capacities: the capacity to perceive and the capacity to create what it perceives. Hence the term Source-Awareness. And this is what you are fundamentally. This is all you are fundamentally.

And yet there’s more to what you are – but none of that is essential to what you are as pure Awareness. Through the miracle of creation, this formless Awareness paradoxically arises as the form we see all around us. And this is what you are in a nonfundamental way.

To help us understand this point a little better, we can use the metaphor of the actor and the character. When the actor comes forward as the character, they are one. That’s an important point. And yet, the character is not fundamentally who the actor really is. The character is not essential to the actor since the actor can drop the role of the character at any time. Again, the actor arising as the character is very much like God arising as creation so I hope you enjoy pondering this metaphor.

Source-Awareness is real (often stated as Real) and yet it cannot be experienced. But it is what you truly are. You can know it because you are it, not because you experience it.

All of creation is experientially real and yet it is a fabrication, a construction, and nonessential to what you are as Source-Awareness.

I like to say that creation exists “one level down” from the non-experiential Reality of Source-Awareness.

The world can be said to be an illusion since it seems to exist all on its own. And yet if it were not for the unseen Creator permeating it and giving it substance, it would not exist. This is why you hear some Hindu teachers say that the world as world is unreal and yet world as God (Brahman) is real. If you think of the world as existing all on its own, you entertain a false idea. But if you think that God comes forward as the world, you entertain a true idea. (By the way, sometimes you hear a similar statement that says that the world is an illusion, rather than "unreal," and I think this is clearer.)

Now, not only is all of creation an illusion, the person you appear to be is also an illusion. Yes, of course, the person exists but it is not the separate, mortal, sentient, physical being that it appears to be. That is the false idea pointed to by our common daily experience.

You exist fundamentally as pure awareness, as Source-Awareness. This is your True Self.

It seems to me that the word (or concept) of nonfundamental existence (or nonessential existence) is sometimes translated as "unreal" and I think this can lead to a fair amount of confusion.

I like to say:

Your fundamental identity is Source-Awareness, the one, uncreated, formless Divine Essence. Your nonfundamental identity is the totality of created reality. This is what you are through the process of creation. And your functional identity is the person you appear to be. All of this is thoroughly divine. God is infinitely intimate with all of creation.

It is God who is arising as everyOne and it is God who is doing everything. How wondrous!

I have essays on my website that go into all of this in more detail. Here are links to two of them:

The Loving Heart of Enlightenment
A summary overview of spiritual awakening in simple, clear English
https://www.infinitelymystical.com/essays/the-loving-heart-of-enlightenment.html
3-pages

Anatta – “Not Self” Rather Than “No Self”
https://www.infinitelymystical.com/essays/anatta.html
3-pages

Take your time with this material. While it is not complicated, it is much different from the way things seem to be and it takes a while for it to sink in both cognitively and intuitively. In my opinion, it can take lifetimes for this wisdom to come alive within your soul in its deepest intuitive form. So no rush and no worries.

Thanks for reading this long post.

In truth, I honor your divine nature

Thomas Razzeto

[Joseph Maynor]

@Thomas Razzeto Thank you for posting this information.  I reviewed all of it.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Thomas Razzeto]

@Joseph Maynor Hi Joseph. Thanks for taking the time to read some of my work. There might be more items of interest on my website. Below is a link to an essay that I wrote two years ago but I just spent about 5 days rewriting it. I just uploaded it yesterday. (Most people would be surprised that it takes me that long to rewrite a four page essay, but I just keep reading and editing until is feels done.) Anyway, here is the link:

Why Do We Call It Nondual Wisdom?
https://infinitelymystical.com/essays/nonduality.html
4 pages

As I often say, this material takes time to sink in so no rush and no worries.

All my best. In truth, I honor your divine nature

Thomas Razzeto
https://infinitelymystical.com/