What would make you commit murder?

[Elliott]

Just now, Ulax said:

The job story I recommend as a useful story. Forget the religious part of it

How so? I don't see any utility

[trenton]

2 hours ago, Jannes said:

@trenton What keeps you with your family? What resources do you have to get out of this situation? 

I'm currently working on this. I'm waiting to speak with an academic advisor so I can live on a college campus instead and work on a bachelor's degree until I transfer overseas to another country where I plan on completing a master's on social sciences. If I can improve social systems, then I can prevent people from appearing in situations like these.

I struggle with holding down a job though because of depression and autism. The jobs are not suited to me and I struggle to reach autism informed employers. I would rather kill myself than work a dead end job forever. I think it would be insane to not kill myself in that scenario seeing the meaninglessness of my suffering in life. This is a scenario I am aiming to avoid.

People disagree with me, but it is probably because you don't have my brain type. The life I would be asked to surrender to is intolerable to me.

[Ulax]

Just now, Elliott said:

How so? I don't see any utility

Peterson says the story of job will essentially happen to us all. Tragedy, evil, unfairness, the mob coming for us, people then blaming us for our situation even when it is not on us. But then you still can decide not to be corrupted by the understandable bitterness, and callings of vengeance and aim up.

In my own life, I was flying high at 18. Best university in the world. Then it all started to fall apart. Many people turned on me, including my family. Bad thing after bad thing occured. Mental illness got deeper and deeper. The worse things got, the more people shamed me, believing i must be causing my own suffering, and was doing wrong. Ended up dropping out, estranged and on welfare, still getting blamed and attacked. I will never forget being mocked by my welfare officer for where i was in life. My vengeance and anger desires grew very large. It was all I thought about for years. Many dark callings rose up in me but this story of job helped me through. It made me feel very seen and it spoke deeply to me. Helped me stay honourable. Even tho I am not religious. I see religion as a childish-fantasy. Anyway, I ended up passing through that era of my life into a positive trajectory but I know how powerful that story can be when it comes to dealing with the darker callings of the human soul.

[trenton]

@Olaf I think you are making incorrect assumptions about me coming from stage red.

I'm not a stranger to compassion. In fact I am working on building compassion further by integrating stage red rather than demonizing it. It is easy to judge and moralize against stage red, but I am looking for something deeper. I am attempting to integrate this homicidal rage rather than demonize it or act on it. I'm wise enough to see that I would not accept the consequences from my position.

The perspective I have outlined is explicitly anti consequentialist. I would only do such a thing if I accepted the consequences were worth it. This is how crime works generally. We try to deter it with consequences, but in practice people often feel that it is still worth it to commit murder regardless. Consequentialist arguments would therefore be rejected by a murderer saying things like the following.

"I don't give a shit if I go to prison! I will see you in hell when I murder you bitch!'

If you accept such consequences, then a person would feel justified in committing murder.

[Jannes]

6 minutes ago, trenton said:

I'm currently working on this. I'm waiting to speak with an academic advisor so I can live on a college campus instead and work on a bachelor's degree until I transfer overseas to another country where I plan on completing a master's on social sciences. If I can improve social systems, then I can prevent people from appearing in situations like these.

I struggle with holding down a job though because of depression and autism. The jobs are not suited to me and I struggle to reach autism informed employers. I would rather kill myself than work a dead end job forever. I think it would be insane to not kill myself in that scenario seeing the meaninglessness of my suffering in life. This is a scenario I am aiming to avoid.

People disagree with me, but it is probably because you don't have my brain type. The life I would be asked to surrender to is intolerable to me.

Sounds like a good LP.

For your jobbing situation: What kind of jobs have you worked in? How is depression and autism holding you back? Do you think there is anything you can do to improve your situation?

[trenton]

26 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Sounds like a good LP.

For your jobbing situation: What kind of jobs have you worked in? How is depression and autism holding you back? Do you think there is anything you can do to improve your situation?

I've tried multiple therapists but I'm unable to access one that specializes in autism and childhood sexual abuse. I end up doing most of the work on my own because I don't trust my family. I end up being isolated to the point that life feels intolerable sometimes.

The reason I lost my job was partially because I couldn't come up with a direction that would make my life acceptable. I'm not convinced by what these dead end jobs offer because they have taken too much from me. Originally I wanted to be a professional chess player, but I needed to find a new life purpose to replace it. This is the alternative life purpose I came up with after a lot of research and self reflection.

Now that I have a path forward that makes living without my family in constant isolation feel tolerable, I now see a reason to work these jobs at least temporarily. They can help pay the student loans I would need. I have applied for jobs since coming up with this plan, but Newport is kind of a shitty location. I tried applying for the PIER, but they never got back to me. I tried applying online but they rarely respond. I tried applying for the UDF and the employees and the interviewer said I did everything fine, but I never got hired anyway. It is like I have to reapply again.

I was going to try sending my applications to the other positions or maybe pet smart.

In this case working a job doesn't make me suicidal if it aids in my life purpose. If a job destroys my life purpose and takes it away, then I would be suicidal until given an acceptable alternative such that I shouldn't kill myself. The way the economy is structured definitely kills some possible paths for a life purpose and there needs to be a substitute in such situations.

Depression worsens insomnia, but I found a solution because I sleep more comfortably when fully clothed with shoes and no blanket. I feel ready to move rather than vulnerable. Sleeping made me feel vulnerable, so sleep disruptions and nightmares worsened my job performance. This would be PTSD worsening depression. I feel better lately and more energetic.

I also prefer warmer foods because cold water and foods lead to muscle contractions which make sleep more uncomfortable. This is a solution I didn't know I needed, but it helps with sleep as well. This makes me more confident in holding down a job unlike last time.

My last two jobs were Kroger including during the pandemic and a job with chess in schools. I was still trying to structure my life around chess mastery, but I have come to accept that it is impossible and not worth it to continue trying because my life circumstances prevented me from pursuing this dream I worked hard for.

Being told to work hard for success means nothing when work is designed to prevent success as it was in my case while being worsened by a family that disrupted my goals as well through stealing money.

In some cases the arguments people instinctively reach for simply don't apply.

[trenton]

4 hours ago, Majed said:

@trenton Eh yo man wtf??? You should consult a psychiatrist it's not normal to have homicidal impulses and thoughts. 

This is if you want a purely secular solution. 

I have tried many therapists and psychiatrists. They often make it worse.

The secular solution you suggested leads to being prescribed medications which make the condition even worse, leading a person to becoming even more volatile. A psychiatrist is precisely what pushes people over the edge into murder or suicide by undermining impulse control.

The secular solution isn't good enough either.

Of course I don't believe in the Bible either.

[trenton]

4 hours ago, Spiral said:

@trenton It’s quite unpleasant, it’s physically damaging for instance. Not to mention a lot of effort if you intent to avoid prison

In this case there is no goal to avoid consequences. You have to not care about prison.

This is why the philosophy for murder established is mutually assured destruction. Getting away with it isn't the goal at all. In this case I would expect to be caught.

Think of a mass shooter for example, do you think they expect to get away with killing 20 kids, or do you think they stopped caring about the consequences?

Murder only makes sense if the goal is mutually assured destruction rather than victory. There is no good outcome and this is accepted.

[trenton]

1 hour ago, Majed said:

@trenton 

Plus what you quoted is cherry picking because christianity preceded secularism, hence you can't apply modern standards of morality to christianity. Christianity still has good insights in relation to human dignity and the sanctity of human life.

In this case the argument is that biblical arguments in general are nearly always cherry picking. There are all kinds of verses we could site and take out of context. The actual context of the Bible would be radically different from today.

I know perfectly well that the standards of the Bible are very different. The problem is the divine command theory argument. This is philosophically a bad argument.

We can say that morality is practical as a social construct and I would agree. That said, such morality is still fundamentally groundless.

Remember, Leviticus said "men shall not lie with men." That means the church should be rabidly against homosexuality over a verse like that. This is the reality of how biblical morality and arguments work in practice.

[Majed]

 

10 minutes ago, trenton said:

In this case the argument is that biblical arguments in general are nearly always cherry picking. There are all kinds of verses we could site and take out of context. The actual context of the Bible would be radically different from today.

I know perfectly well that the standards of the Bible are very different. The problem is the divine command theory argument. This is philosophically a bad argument.

We can say that morality is practical as a social construct and I would agree. That said, such morality is still fundamentally groundless.

Remember, Leviticus said "men shall not lie with men." That means the church should be rabidly against homosexuality over a verse like that. This is the reality of how biblical morality and arguments work in practice.

Even the construct of homosexuals didn't exist in christendom in midieval times. People were seen as either natural or deviant. Similar to how some progressives see homosexuality as a construct and that sexuality is fluid and might changes over time. But yeah i don't see how the treatment of "homosexuals" back then is different from our treatment of pedophiles today, and all sorts of other sexuals perversions and deviances. At some point the world has to be organized for the majority not for a few nut cases. 

[Olaf]

@trenton thinking that you are above some basic moralistic thing and you can just spiritually bypass all of this is what is called spiritual narcissism, it is this idea that "I can see how I am above morals, how I am spiritually more advanced and that this all doesn't matter, because you guys don't get it. You don't get that I am from a gangster family and that murdering is normal and that you should integrate it", NO fuck that, fuck that ego, just realise all of this is manipulation of your own mind, this is not you speaking from soul, this is the mind rationalising low conscious behavior. Just like someone justifying stealing something from someone. It is like an addiction to the lower stuff and the mind is very good in rationalising anything especially unconscious behavior, without unconscious behavior a part of you dies, the ego dies, in order for the ego to survive it does all of this bullshit. 

Edited 10 hours ago by Olaf

[Olaf]

@Leo Gura I think you need to help this guy out

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, trenton said:

I've tried multiple therapists but I'm unable to access one that specializes in autism and childhood sexual abuse. I end up doing most of the work on my own because I don't trust my family. I end up being isolated to the point that life feels intolerable sometimes.

The reason I lost my job was partially because I couldn't come up with a direction that would make my life acceptable. I'm not convinced by what these dead end jobs offer because they have taken too much from me. Originally I wanted to be a professional chess player, but I needed to find a new life purpose to replace it. This is the alternative life purpose I came up with after a lot of research and self reflection.

Now that I have a path forward that makes living without my family in constant isolation feel tolerable, I now see a reason to work these jobs at least temporarily. They can help pay the student loans I would need. I have applied for jobs since coming up with this plan, but Newport is kind of a shitty location. I tried applying for the PIER, but they never got back to me. I tried applying online but they rarely respond. I tried applying for the UDF and the employees and the interviewer said I did everything fine, but I never got hired anyway. It is like I have to reapply again.

I was going to try sending my applications to the other positions or maybe pet smart.

In this case working a job doesn't make me suicidal if it aids in my life purpose. If a job destroys my life purpose and takes it away, then I would be suicidal until given an acceptable alternative such that I shouldn't kill myself. The way the economy is structured definitely kills some possible paths for a life purpose and there needs to be a substitute in such situations.

Depression worsens insomnia, but I found a solution because I sleep more comfortably when fully clothed with shoes and no blanket. I feel ready to move rather than vulnerable. Sleeping made me feel vulnerable, so sleep disruptions and nightmares worsened my job performance. This would be PTSD worsening depression. I feel better lately and more energetic.

I also prefer warmer foods because cold water and foods lead to muscle contractions which make sleep more uncomfortable. This is a solution I didn't know I needed, but it helps with sleep as well. This makes me more confident in holding down a job unlike last time.

My last two jobs were Kroger including during the pandemic and a job with chess in schools. I was still trying to structure my life around chess mastery, but I have come to accept that it is impossible and not worth it to continue trying because my life circumstances prevented me from pursuing this dream I worked hard for.

Being told to work hard for success means nothing when work is designed to prevent success as it was in my case while being worsened by a family that disrupted my goals as well through stealing money.

In some cases the arguments people instinctively reach for simply don't apply.

Sounds like you already put in a lot of effort and strategizing. 

Regarding your loneliness: Do you have someone outside of your family to reach out for/ socialize with? Weekly events where you socialize?

How expensive is a flat in Newport btw. ? Maybe you could move into a shared apartment, which would be much cheaper and also help with loneliness. 

I get that the job situation can be though. I dont know if I have tipps for that other then to hang in there and maybe take chances outside of your comfort zone. 

[trenton]

26 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@trenton thinking that you are above some basic moralistic thing and you can just spiritually bypass all of this is what is called spiritual narcissism, it is this idea that "I can see how I am above morals, how I am spiritually more advanced and that this all doesn't matter, because you guys don't get it. 

I am not claiming to be above morality nor am I claiming I can bypass this with spirituality.

My position regarding morality is pragmatic anti - realist. I don't believe there is anything transcendent about morality, but it doesn't mean a society can't use morality to improve how it functions. From this standpoint murder is wrong if you care about other people and their well being. I'm not claiming all of morality should be thrown out. It is still useful for organizing society.

Also I'm not claiming that it is normal to grow up with a gangster father who holds people at gun point while demanding money over drug deals.

I agree that my father was a terrible parent. I wouldn't want to raise a child like that.

[trenton]

3 hours ago, Jannes said:

Sounds like you already put in a lot of effort and strategizing. 

Regarding your loneliness: Do you have someone outside of your family to reach out for/ socialize with? Weekly events where you socialize?

How expensive is a flat in Newport btw. ? Maybe you could move into a shared apartment, which would be much cheaper and also help with loneliness. 

I get that the job situation can be though. I dont know if I have tipps for that other then to hang in there and maybe take chances outside of your comfort zone. 

I have support groups I go to. They give me something to do along with some board game clubs. The problem is that they are also not autism informed. I am forced to fit a mold that I don't fit even in groups that are supposed to be validating.

On one hand the support groups say I'm supposed to speak from my feelings rather than from logic even though logic helps me process emotions. Additionally, they don't actually want to hear about my feelings because people find it to disturbing to describe child sex trafficking. Even my family said they wanted me to talk about my feelings, but clearly it was never worth it because my cousin who was once my friend has turned against me over what I said about my father even though all of it was simply reporting what happened.

I wish I had people I would actually be comfortable socializing with. I have been recommended dating by multiple therapists, hence I asked the question. I want to make sure I don't end up in some horrible relationship that leads to a homicide in some form or another. These factors complicate dating for me despite my loneliness. I make people earn trust first. I need to make sure I don't get jumped, scammed, or killed or end up in a situation that would make homicide or suicide seem like an acceptable option.

The problem with living in a cheap apartment is that I need to have a reason for living. I would need the resulting life structure to be enough to not have it be worth committing suicide. This is why I was thinking of living on campus at school for a different social environment and a reason for being alive. The complications is that if I don't live on campus then I would need to substitute those payments for the money spent on an apartment and transportation. I'm honestly not sure how the math works out in that case. Maybe it's better, maybe not.

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, trenton said:

I have support groups I go to. They give me something to do along with some board game clubs. The problem is that they are also not autism informed. I am forced to fit a mold that I don't fit even in groups that are supposed to be validating.

On one hand the support groups say I'm supposed to speak from my feelings rather than from logic even though logic helps me process emotions. Additionally, they don't actually want to hear about my feelings because people find it to disturbing to describe child sex trafficking. Even my family said they wanted me to talk about my feelings, but clearly it was never worth it because my cousin who was once my friend has turned against me over what I said about my father even though all of it was simply reporting what happened.

I wish I had people I would actually be comfortable socializing with. I have been recommended dating by multiple therapists, hence I asked the question. I want to make sure I don't end up in some horrible relationship that leads to a homicide in some form or another. These factors complicate dating for me despite my loneliness. I make people earn trust first. I need to make sure I don't get jumped, scammed, or killed or end up in a situation that would make homicide or suicide seem like an acceptable option.

The problem with living in a cheap apartment is that I need to have a reason for living. I would need the resulting life structure to be enough to not have it be worth committing suicide. This is why I was thinking of living on campus at school for a different social environment and a reason for being alive. The complications is that if I don't live on campus then I would need to substitute those payments for the money spent on an apartment and transportation. I'm honestly not sure how the math works out in that case. Maybe it's better, maybe not.

The whole block sounds pretty logically coherent and thoughtthrough, so its not easy for me to find anything obvious you havent considered yet. But I will try my best.

Do you have a therapist which specializes in autism and child sex trafficking though? This seems like the most important thing. 

How do you feel at the different social spots? Do they make you feel better or more lonely? I know they have a logical purpose, but that is only true to the extend that it actually helps in practice. 

1 hour ago, trenton said:

I make people earn trust first. I need to make sure I don't get jumped, scammed, or killed or end up in a situation that would make homicide or suicide seem like an acceptable option.

Oh, that complicates things. On the one hand it sounds reasonable to start with some inner work beforehand, theraphy and so on. On the other hand you said that the help there was limited and THIS would be a way to move forward. 

Do you meet a decent amount of girls on a weekly basis? That would increase the chances you will find someone where you are comfortable laying your fears besides with. 

1 hour ago, trenton said:

The problem with living in a cheap apartment is that I need to have a reason for living. I would need the resulting life structure to be enough to not have it be worth committing suicide. This is why I was thinking of living on campus at school for a different social environment and a reason for being alive. The complications is that if I don't live on campus then I would need to substitute those payments for the money spent on an apartment and transportation. I'm honestly not sure how the math works out in that case. Maybe it's better, maybe not.

A change in scenary can work wonders. How would you finance university though? I heard that in the States you need to pay a lot. 

Oh and do you have a journal on this forum? It can help with processing a lot. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Jannes

[trenton]

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

The whole block sounds pretty logically coherent and thoughtthrough, so its not easy for me to find anything obvious you havent considered yet. But I will try my best.

Do you have a therapist which specializes in autism and child sex trafficking though? This seems like the most important thing.  

I tried to find a therapist that would be suited for me. They are rare enough that I can't easily access such a thing, therefore I do a lot of psychological research on my own, including the psychology of the people who harmed me so I can make sense of these experiences. I also couldn't find an OCD specialist either, so I use my own research instead of trying to find a human to talk to. The problem is that in order to get a therapist suited for me, I would need to move out of the State, potentially to Massachusetts or Wisconsin. The problem then is that those colleges require a bachelor's degree in order to transfer for continued education. Therefore, I would have to finish that degree first at a nearby college so I can then transfer to a therapist in another state with an agency called ANNE which might help me get autism informed employment. By that point I may as well just leave the country and go to Germany. It is surprisingly difficult to find a therapist who is comfortable discussing sex given how common rape is trauma recovery.

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

How do you feel at the different social spots? Do they make you feel better or more lonely? I know they have a logical purpose, but that is only true to the extend that it actually helps in practice. 

Do you meet a decent amount of girls on a weekly basis? That would increase the chances you will find someone where you are comfortable laying your fears besides with.

These questions trigger sadness and make me want to cry but I will do my best to answer.

I hate trying to socialize in many environments. Most people are not autistic so if I give people the logical answer it throws them off because they expect me to answer with feelings naturally in conversation. The communication style difference is a common problem.

I also now know how to avoid being framed for kidnapping which is important for socializing with people in public spaces. This is what happens if I trust people too quickly and act in good faith. People with autism are usually easier to decieve in such situations, so I use complex psychological models to evaluate people and help me survive. Spiral dynamics helps but more perspectives help too. I think Spiral Dynamics is too broad and we need to zoom in to more accurately assess an individual.

I often feel invisible unless people see me through intelligence, wisdom, or mastery on board games. They are impressed by my skills. However, discussing my feelings leads to invalidation and being shut down because my feelings are too intense for people to handle. If people don't want me to be overly abstract, then there is nothing I can say that will effectively communicate my point of view anymore. Typing online makes it much easier than speaking in person, but most people hate long texts and don't read it all.

I can connect with people slowly through board games. I like to play chess with people because it helps me to gather data on how you think. We discuss our ideas openly through the game so I can get a lens into how your mind works. Chess is part of the survival strategy for creating a low stakes situation for evaluating how a person operates. I do the same thing when discussing moral philosophy or observing a person's moral reasoning. Most people seem to have just reacted to the topic without parsing carefully. I don't plan on murdering anyone right now. I'm trying to address any situation that might make me want to commit murder as even good people can be pushed over the edge. That is why I mentioned frame up scenarios in which the consequences of going to prison no longer mean the same thing anymore.

In reality I have a complex moral philosophy. I have done a lot of work on Project Steelman. The goal was to find the best argument I could for different positions and controversial debates. This includes gun control, euthanasia, slavery, abortion, and others. Many of the debates were draws in my opinion. It looks like when I combined my improved reasoning with my knowledge of criminology I learned how to convincingly think and argue like a murderer as well. I think a murderer would need to say "fuck the consequences, I'll kill you anyway!"

I would like to meet girls, but there is a problem. Firstly, the dating apps have a pay wall. Secondly, the apps are fast paced and push toward meeting people rapidly based on limited profile information. Those profiles barely tell you anything about these people.

Secondly, social media has created an environment in which public spaces are much emptier than they used to be. People used to go to parks all the time to meet up, but now so many people are on social media that the parks are empty. Sometimes I have casual chats with strangers at the library and we discuss some trivia we find interesting.

I don't know where I would go to meet women. I don't think Newport is a good spot for this purpose. Dating apps are not what I like.

I have met women I liked before, but they were in inappropriate contexts like work or mental health institutions where it is common for rapid bonding to lead couples to having sex. Therefore I didn't say anything. Shared trauma in those environments are powerful for falling in love. It is hard for me to find environments in which I would naturally and spontaneously find a woman I like. Prior to adulthood, that didn't happen since I was five. I saw a girl I liked and we started talking because I thought she was beautiful. However, her family moved.

I don't know what environment would be good for me because social media has complicated the dating landscape for some including me.

[Elliott]

@trenton you need a therapist for cptsd. Just find one for one issue at a time

[trenton]

51 minutes ago, Elliott said:

@trenton you need a therapist for cptsd. Just find one for one issue at a time

Can you tell me what this therapist would be able to do? I'm not really confident in trusting therapists anymore after all the experiences I had with them previously. It included religious coercion with some on this forum insisting religion as a cure.

What problem are you looking at that makes you think I would need treatment for cptsd? I know this is common in abusive families. The problem is that it is difficult to find a therapist that would be helpful to the point that I end up processing most of this stuff alone while trying to get away from my family.

This all makes me very upset, but I want to makes sure you know the reality of how the mental health system works when I'm expected to turn to them for "help." If they fail, I have to organize an alternative life plan without them. This is where research and education comes in. The so called experts are often fools, so we need to educate ourselves instead.

I know a lot about these subjects, but what else do you think I'm missing? What is it that you think I don't know?

[Elliott]

Help you go through and get over the trauma, give you coping strategies for the mean time. You go over the trauma, and recontextualize how your mind thinks of it.

Edited 42 minutes ago by Elliott