Female Friends — A Dilemma

[Atb210201]

24 minutes ago, Emerald said:

This is a moralization. 

You seem to believe that you know how other people "should" be conducting their lives.

Of course it is.

And of course I know what's not right, specifically in this case.

Yes, I know what is right and wrong here.

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Atb210201

[Emerald]

7 minutes ago, Atb210201 said:

Of course it is.

And of course I know what's not right, specifically in this case.

Yes, I know what is right and wrong here.

How do you know?

[Atb210201]

9 minutes ago, Emerald said:

How do you know?

Because I've watched people very carefully about this particular subject.

Nobody really wants what was described here that I was against.

It's just a fleeting desire of lust.

Which will make you regret it afterwards.

That's all what a meaningless sex is.

I know it, you know it, everybody here knows it. But if someone is still going back and forth with it then of course a defensive case must be made for it.

Still doesn't make it meaningful.

Edited 9 hours ago by Atb210201

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Atb210201

Quote

Because I've watched people very carefully about this particular subject.

You do realise this is magical thinking, yes? 

You have very little idea of what is going on internally with people from observing the outside. Especially with complex interpersonal dynamics. 

Just an example - you tried to tell me I feel and experience something I told you I do not.

A small personal sample size blown out to a wild generalisation is also problematic.

Edited 9 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Atb210201]

Just now, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Atb210201

You do realise this is magical thinking, yes? 

You have no idea what is going on internally with people from observing the outside. Especially with complex interpersonal dynamics. 

Just an example - you tried to tell me I feel and experience something I told you I do not.

Sure keep saying that.

I know what your soul desires but you keep saying that to yourself and to me.

It's fine.

You surly need to keep going this way.

Do it all the way.

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Atb210201 said:

Because I've watched people very carefully about this particular subject.

Nobody really wants what was described here that I was against.

It's just a fleeting desire of lust.

Which will make you regret it afterwards.

That's all what a meaningless sex is.

I know it, you know it, everybody here knows it. But if someone is still going back and forth with it then of course a defensive case must be made for it.

Still doesn't make it meaningful.

Casual sex definitely isn't my cup of tea, personally. And it can certainly be unhealthy.

That said, I'm glad that I've had the experience of casual sex in the past, as I learned a lot about myself from it. And I learned a lot about men that I didn't understand before. I noticed that they were very lonely... and I didn't realize that before.

So, I would never be so black and white as to say, "Casual sex is always wrong." That's a very moralistic judgment that doesn't line up with people's actual motivations and experiences of it.

The reality is that it's just an experience. And you can make it mean whatever you want to make it mean.

Personally, I think that if I had never had casual sex, I'd have a lot of incorrect notions and fantasies about it. And I would always feel like I had missed out. And that sense of missing out on sowing my wild oats might cause me to feel very conflicted about a longterm marriage with just one person... as it would mean sacrificing the capacity to get to know that side of myself for my entire life.

So, the casual sex wasn't meaningful to me in terms of the connection itself. But it was meaningful to me as an experience that I'm glad that I've had at some point in my life. And it helped me realize that I'm genuinely not very interested in it... as the fantasy in my head was better than the reality.

And sometimes it's important just to be able to say, "I've been there and done that. And I understand it now."

My sense is that your moralization and black and white thinking causes you to misunderstand what actually motivates people towards casual sex.

And it's pretty obvious that there's both a dearth of experience and a sense of moral superiority over those who have more lived experience than you. And you're building your identity as, "The morally superior person" based on your dearth of experience. And you seem to be getting an ego boost out of judging people and moralizing at them.

[Atb210201]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

Casual sex definitely isn't my cup of tea, personally. And it can certainly be unhealthy.

That said, I'm glad that I've had the experience of casual sex in the past, as I learned a lot about myself from it. And I learned a lot about men that I didn't understand before. I noticed that they were very lonely... and I didn't realize that before.

So, I would never be so black and white as to say, "Casual sex is always wrong." That's a very moralistic judgment that doesn't line up with people's actual motivations and experiences of it.

The reality is that it's just an experience. And you can make it mean whatever you want to make it mean.

Personally, I think that if I had never had casual sex, I'd have a lot of incorrect notions and fantasies about it. And I would always feel like I had missed out. And that sense of missing out on sowing my wild oats might cause me to feel very conflicted about a longterm marriage with just one person... as it would mean sacrificing the capacity to get to know that side of myself for my entire life.

So, the casual sex wasn't meaningful to me in terms of the connection itself. But it was meaningful to me as an experience that I'm glad that I've had at some point in my life. And it helped me realize that I'm genuinely not very interested in it... as the fantasy in my head was better than the reality.

And sometimes it's important just to be able to say, "I've been there and done that. And I understand it now."

My sense is that your moralization and black and white thinking causes you to misunderstand what actually motivates people towards casual sex.

And it's pretty obvious that there's both a dearth of experience and a sense of moral superiority over those who have more lived experience than you. And you're building your identity as, "The morally superior person" based on your dearth of experience. And you seem to be getting an ego boost out of judging people and moralizing at them.

I do get a sense of moral superiority but that's not a bug it's a feature of what just is.

And I know what motivates people to do it I just think the temptation should be resisted.

That being said, although I haven't had much experience in this field but I surly am guilty of doing Somethings at the very least.

But here's the thing I never feel proud of any sexual activity I've done if that person was not gonna last in my life.

On the contrary, it's a shame that you have to live with your entire life.

There is nothing good about experiencing it with anyone that's not gonna last in your life and who is not gonna be yours.

It just imprints a memory on your body and mind and soul that would be there with you forever and disrupt all of your relationships yet to come in the future.

That is why it is prohibited in all the traditions of the world.

It ultimately feels like cheating to your beloved whoever he or she is going to be and whenever it's going to be.

Edited 4 hours ago by Atb210201

[Emerald]

30 minutes ago, Atb210201 said:

I do get a sense of moral superiority but that's not a bug it's a feature of what just is.

And I know what motivates people to do it I just think the temptation should be resisted.

That being said although I haven't had much experience in this field but I surly am guilty of doing Somethings at the very least.

But here's the thing I never feel proud of any sexual activity I've done if that person was not gonna last in my life.

On the contrary it's a shame that you have to live with your entire life.

There is nothing good about experiencing it with anyone that's not gonna last in your life and who is not gonna be yours.

It just prints a memory on your body and mind and soul that would be there with you forever and disrupt all of your relationships yet to come in the future.

That is why it is prohibited in all the traditions of the world.

It ultimately feels like cheating to your beloved whoever he or she is going to be and whenever it's going to be.

You're projecting a whole lot of extra baggage onto sex that need not be there... and it's creating a sense of sexual shame for you.

You probably even feel guilty and ashamed when you have sexual feelings with the intensity of the meanings you project onto sex.

And what worse is that you've built your entire identity and sense of superiority off of the basis of sexual shame and judgment. 

That means, if you ever transgress that boundary, it's game over. And you're going to be right on the chopping block of your own absolute judgments. And because you believe it to be so, you will carry sexual shame for the rest of your life... because that was an identity rule that you projected onto sex.

The issue is that ironically, you make casual sex mean way too much about who you fundamentally are as a person... and your sense of existential value. And you project those same arbitrary value judgments onto other people.

What I recommend is to stop projecting all these extra meanings onto sex that aren't there, like...

• It's a shame you carry the rest of your life (That's only true if you decide that it's true. The power of meaning sits with you)
• It imprints a memory on you body/mind/soul and will disrupt all future relationships (This is magical thinking)
• You cheated on your beloved that you haven't met yet (If your beloved sees it that way, they're immature and insecure. Don't get involved with that person.)

You just have to recognize that what you're believing is truth is actually just a projection of meaning that isn't inherently there.

And right now, your relationship with casual sex is serving as the foundation of your identity and sense of meaning in life.

I recommend removing casual sex from your identity altogether.

Edited 4 hours ago by Emerald

[Natasha Tori Maru]

4 hours ago, Atb210201 said:

Sure keep saying that.

I know what your soul desires but you keep saying that to yourself and to me.

It's fine.

You surly need to keep going this way.

Do it all the way.

No worries, I can keep saying it. Most happy to oblige 😊

You are incorrect.

Edited 4 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Atb210201]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

You're projecting a whole lot of extra baggage onto sex that need not be there... and it's creating a sense of sexual shame for you.

You probably even feel guilty and ashamed when you have sexual feelings with the intensity of the meanings you project onto sex.

And what worse is that you've built your entire identity and sense of superiority off of the basis of sexual shame and judgment. 

That means, if you ever transgress that boundary, it's game over. And you're going to be right on the chopping block of your own absolute judgments. And because you believe it to be so, you will carry sexual shame for the rest of your life... because that was an identity rule that you projected onto sex.

The issue is that ironically, you make casual sex mean way too much about who you fundamentally are as a person... and your sense of existential value. And you project those same arbitrary value judgments onto other people.

What I recommend is to stop projecting all these extra meanings onto sex that aren't there, like...

• It's a shame you carry the rest of your life (That's only true if you decide that it's true. The power of meaning sits with you)
• It imprints a memory on you body/mind/soul and will disrupt all future relationships (This is magical thinking)
• You cheated on your beloved that you haven't met yet (If your beloved sees it that way, they're immature and insecure. Don't get involved with that person.)

You just have to recognize that what you're believing is truth is actually just a projection of meaning that isn't inherently there.

And right now, your relationship with casual sex is serving as the foundation of your identity and sense of meaning in life.

I recommend removing your casual sex from your identity altogether.

Sorry can't be done.

It just is what it is.

I respect and appreciate your effort but it's futile for me.

I'm just gonna be this way till I die.

[Atb210201]

Just now, Natasha Tori Maru said:

No worries, I can keep saying it.

You are incorrect.

I'm sorry if I pushed too hard.

I know I shouldn't even have started it from the beginning.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, Atb210201 said:

I'm sorry if I pushed too hard.

I know I shouldn't even have started it from the beginning.

You don't need to apologise. No offense was taken. 

We are trying to help you.

[Atb210201]

Just now, Natasha Tori Maru said:

You don't need to apologise. No offense was taken. 

We are trying to help you.

I don't need help thank you.

I'm glad you don't feel offended.

Take care.

[Emerald]

20 minutes ago, Atb210201 said:

Sorry can't be done.

It just is what it is.

I respect and appreciate your effort but it's futile for me.

I'm just gonna be this way till I die.

You have the power over deciding what things mean to you.

So, you get to choose whether or not to continue making your relationship with casual sex the basis of your identity or not.

The meanings that you're projecting onto sex (and onto your identity) aren't something that reality is imposing on you that you're simply subject to.

You have the power to make whatever meanings you want to make in life.

If you want to maintain a sense of sexual shame as the foundation of your identity... you can choose to keep making the meaning that sex is shameful.

But if you don't want to make sexual shame the foundation of your identity, you have the power to change that.

Like, when I was a teenager, I got really ego-inflated around being someone who would only ever be with one guy. And I was very attached to that identity. And I felt all kind of superiority to specifically other young women who were more promiscuous.

Then when that relationship fell through when I was 20, I was lonely and had poor boundaries... and I ended up being invited to hang out by guys. And I would say yes, and rationalize to myself that I'll just say no if they try to get physical. But whenever they'd go to escalate, I either wouldn't say no... or I'd say no and they'd keep trying and I'd eventually give in.

And I ended up having quite a bit of casual sex in a short period of time... like 6 guys in a 2 month span of time.

And because I had this denial/shame identity dynamic going on with sex and added all kinds of extra meanings, it created this feeling of being out of control of my sexual drive.

Because of my sexual shame, I had this denial that any part of me wanted to at all (when a part of me did and a part of me didn't)... which caused me to be able to rationalize my way into situations where sex may happen whilst thinking that "I'll just say no."

And every time I had casual sex during that time, I felt like I was on the chopping block of my own judgments that were forming the basis of my teenage identity... and my sense of superiority over other women (and men too, to a lesser degree). And I felt like I was permanently lessening my existential value.

But that's the way shame identities of superiority tend to operate. Because I felt superior on the basis of my chastity... my chastity identity got dashed on the rocks. And it needed to be dashed on the rocks in order for me to grow past my judgements and superior identities.

In fact, every single time I've built my identity on the basis of moral superiority (which is multiple times)... my morally superior identities have always been dashed on the rocks. And I'm eternally grateful for that.. even though it's a really mini-ego death in the moment.

Remember... "Those who exalt themselves will be humbled" and it will be a mercy.

Edited 4 hours ago by Emerald

[Atb210201]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

You have the power over deciding what things mean to you.

So, you get to choose whether or not to continue making your relationship with casual sex the basis of your identity or not.

The meanings that you're projecting onto sex (and onto your identity) aren't something that reality is imposing on you that you're simply subject to.

You have the power to make whatever meanings you want to make in life.

If you want to maintain a sense of sexual shame as the foundation of your identity... you can choose to keep making the meaning that sex is shameful.

But if you don't want to make sexual shame the foundation of your identity, you have the power to change that.

Like, when I was a teenager, I got really ego-inflated around being someone who would only ever be with one guy. And I was very attached to that identity. And I felt all kind of superiority to specifically other young women who were more promiscuous.

Then when that relationship fell through when I was 20, I was lonely and had poor boundaries... and I ended up being invited to hang out by guys. And I would say yes, and rationalize to myself that I'll just say no if they try to get physical. But whenever they'd go to escalate, I either wouldn't say no... or I'd say no and they'd keep trying and I'd eventually give in.

And I ended up having quite a bit of casual sex in a short period of time... like 6 guys in a 2 month span of time.

And because I had this denial/shame identity dynamic going on with sex and added all kinds of extra meanings, it created this feeling of being out of control of my sexual drive.

Because of my sexual shame, I had this denial that any part of me wanted to at all (when a part of me did and a part of me didn't)... which caused me to be able to rationalize my way into situations where sex may happen whilst thinking that "I'll just say no."

And every time I had casual sex during that time, I felt like I was on the chopping block of my own judgments that were forming the basis of my teenage identity... and my sense of superiority over other women (and men too, to a lesser degree). And I felt like I was permanently lessening my existential value.

But that's the way shame identities of superiority tend to operate. Because I felt superior on the basis of my chastity... my chastity identity got dashed on the rocks. And it needed to be dashed on the rocks in order for me to grow past my judgements and superior identities.

In fact, every single time I've built my identity on the basis of moral superiority (which is multiple times)... my morally superior identities have always been dashed on the rocks. And I'm eternally grateful for that.. even though it's a really mini-ego death in the moment.

Remember... "Those who exalt themselves will be humbled" and it will be a mercy.

You have to play your character and I have to play mine.

I will continue to choose what I've been choosing.

I'm both exalted and humbled at the same time. Both ashamed and proud. Both guilty and innocent. Of course all to some degree in relation to or compared to others.

Can't help but appreciate the effort you put into your writings and also to some degree feel guilty that I'm maybe making you write all of this with no results in the end that you might have hoped for.

Thanks anyways.

Edited 3 hours ago by Atb210201

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Atb210201 said:

You have to play your character and I have to play mine.

I will continue to choose what I've been choosing.

I'm both exalted and humbled at the same time. Both ashamed and proud. Both guilty and innocent. Of course all to some degree in relation to or compared to others.

Can't help but appreciate the effort you put into your writings and also to some degree feel guilty that I'm maybe making you write all of this with no results in the end that you might have hoped for.

Thanks anyways.

It's your choice.