Livestreamed Conversation - The value of a man with Yetineti

[yetineti]

@Joshe

I’m open to a ‘round 2,’ perhaps with a mod and definitely with proper clarification.

I have previous examples as well, unfortunately some of the threads have been deleted. They’re reconstructible through the forum index, though. I plan on sharing some of that in the future.

Here’s the concrete example I’m looking at from this exchange:

I tried to clarify the topic before the stream > that was framed as me creating “exit ramps.”

Disputed framing > I question/clarify it > clarification gets treated as evasion > the disputed framing is later assumed as established > my failure to follow it becomes proof that I evaded.

Afterward Kyle says the agreed topic was specifically for me to define and demonstrate my value in my own life > but that definition of the agreement is itself what I had been trying to clarify beforehand.

Disputed framing > I question/clarify it > clarification gets treated as evasion > the disputed framing is later assumed as established > my failure to follow it becomes proof that I evaded.

And even in this exchange:

Kyle says the next debate should have a clearly defined thesis > I ask whether that means ours wasn’t clearly defined > he says it was clearly defined > then defines it in the exact way I had been disputing and trying to clarify beforehand > my refusal to follow that framing becomes proof that I evaded it.

Disputed framing > I question/clarify it > clarification gets treated as evasion > the disputed framing is later assumed as established > my failure to follow it becomes proof that I evaded.

That’s the kind of loop I mean. The conclusion depends on accepting the very premise I was disputing, while disputing the premise becomes evidence for the conclusion.

I’ve been going back through the interactions pretty carefully to make sure I’m not forcing that pattern onto them. If you think there’s still a step missing there, what would you want to see demonstrated more concretely?

 

[yetineti]

I think part of why this has been so confusing is that the two loops are really one larger loop:

Judgment about my value > I ask what justified it > I’m asked to demonstrate my value instead > I question why the burden shifted to me > that questioning gets treated as evasion > I try to clarify what we actually agreed to discuss > clarification gets framed as an “exit ramp” > the disputed framing gets treated as the settled agreement > not following that framing becomes proof that I evaded > that “evasion” reinforces the original negative judgment > I ask how that proves the original judgment > I’m handed the same test again > repeat.

That’s the combined structure I’ve been trying to isolate.

Basically, the frame starts equating:

questioning the burden = evasion

clarifying the topic = evasion

not accepting the disputed frame = evasion

evasion = evidence supporting the original judgment

[LordFall]

@yetineti Let’s be real about what actually happened on the stream. Within the first ten minutes, I laid out my definition of value—the empirical ability to create abundance and solve real-world problems for others as well as being able to help them achieve their goals. From that point right up until the end, you refused to engage with that framework, refused to share how you provide value in your own life, and refused to offer any contrasting definition of your own.

Around the 33 minute mark, you explicitly stated on air that you wouldn't tell us how you're embodying the idea of value in your life and that's not why you wanted to have the talk. It seems like you deliberately ran away from the debate framing beforehand just so you wouldn't have to take a concrete stance and defend it on air. That's what I mean by evasion.

One of my biggest critiques of people on this forum is the unhealthy Stage Green attitude so many post from. It manifests as a total avoidance of real-world accountability through spiritual bypassing—this idea that "if I'm part of universal consciousness, then tangible standards of value, competence, and societal utility don't apply to me." You brought that exact posture into our conversation: retreating into abstract meta-philosophy to avoid being measured by any concrete standard whatsoever.

It seemed like you wanted to spend four hours endlessly philosophizing about the abstract concept of value and debating why we even need to produce value in the first place. Ironically, I didn't find that conversational loop to be very valuable, and after 90 minutes of it, I had enough and called it.

It's a good thing you pivoted to a conversation frame beforehand, because if this were scored as a real debate, I would've clearly won on substance, structure, and clarity. 

Edited 8 hours ago by LordFall

[Joshe]

15 hours ago, yetineti said:

I’ve been going back through the interactions pretty carefully to make sure I’m not forcing that pattern onto them. If you think there’s still a step missing there, what would you want to see demonstrated more concretely?

Sorry, I worded my suggestion poorly. It seems to me that your current line of argumentation can't lead to anywhere substantive, even if it's 100% correct. Don't take this as me saying your line is useless or pointless. I can see where you're coming from and I agree with many parts that I can see clearly, and I understand why you've taken some of the stances you have.

I thought you were originally circling something like: Kyle is universalizing his own value judgements and when people don't meet or care about his standards, they're deficient. This is what I was trying to bring it back to. To me, the key argument seems to be about: what makes someone think they're the authority to define value for everyone. And I think that's a fruitful exploration.

Where my mind goes to with this is: what explains a preoccupation with rank/status/inherit value? And the first thing that comes to mind is: superiority orientation. What does it look like when high ambition meets a superiority orientation, and what are some strategies for that combination to express itself. For example, "tough-love" can be a good stealth vehicle for expression. "I'm a whip to those who shirk" with the stated motive being concern or benevolence. 

Just some ideas. 

[yetineti]

2 hours ago, LordFall said:

@yetineti Let’s be real about what actually happened on the stream. Within the first ten minutes, I laid out my definition of value—the empirical ability to create abundance and solve real-world problems for others as well as being able to help them achieve their goals. From that point right up until the end, you refused to engage with that framework, refused to share how you provide value in your own life, and refused to offer any contrasting definition of your own.

Around the 33 minute mark, you explicitly stated on air that you wouldn't tell us how you're embodying the idea of value in your life and that's not why you wanted to have the talk. It seems like you deliberately ran away from the debate framing beforehand just so you wouldn't have to take a concrete stance and defend it on air. That's what I mean by evasion.

One of my biggest critiques of people on this forum is the unhealthy Stage Green attitude so many post from. It manifests as a total avoidance of real-world accountability through spiritual bypassing—this idea that "if I'm part of universal consciousness, then tangible standards of value, competence, and societal utility don't apply to me." You brought that exact posture into our conversation: retreating into abstract meta-philosophy to avoid being measured by any concrete standard whatsoever.

It seemed like you wanted to spend four hours endlessly philosophizing about the abstract concept of value and debating why we even need to produce value in the first place. Ironically, I didn't find that conversational loop to be very valuable, and after 90 minutes of it, I had enough and called it.

It's a good thing you pivoted to a conversation frame beforehand, because if this were scored as a real debate, I would've clearly won on substance, structure, and clarity. 

This response adds a third demonstration of the same loop.

I first laid out the structure:

“YetiNeti tries to clarify > reframe as evasion.

‘Evasive’ conversation > devalue the conversation.

Leaving > relabel as ‘using my time better,’ not evasion.

Accused of evading > reverse the accusation: proof they were evading first.

So the seal is: clarification = evidence, disengagement = justified, counteraccusation = more evidence. Nothing is allowed to count against the original ‘evasion’ claim.”

I then explained how the two loops connect:

“Judgment about my value > I ask what justified it > I’m asked to demonstrate my value instead > I question why the burden shifted to me > that questioning gets treated as evasion > I try to clarify what we actually agreed to discuss > clarification gets framed as an ‘exit ramp’ > the disputed framing gets treated as the settled agreement > not following that framing becomes proof that I evaded > that ‘evasion’ reinforces the original negative judgment > I ask how that proves the original judgment > I’m handed the same test again > repeat.”

Your response was:

“Let’s be real about what happened.”

You then restate the disputed account as settled reality: “It was clearly defined,” I “avoided defining what think value is,” “refused to share how provide it,” came in with “an agenda to cross-examine the host,” and engaged in “deflection and evasion.”

But this is the third pass through the same structure. I identify the loop > my identification is reframed as denial, manipulation, or refusal to face reality > your reframed account is presented as “what really happened” > I question that account > my questioning becomes further evidence of evasion.

So the act of pointing out the self-sealing structure is itself absorbed into the structure. The disputed premise is repeatedly restated as fact, and my refusal to accept it is then treated as proof of the original accusation.

That is why the question remains: what evidence originally justified the judgment, and what evidence would count against it?

That is what I wanted to talk about.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by yetineti

[yetineti]

@Joshe
 

This really doesn’t have much to do with Kyle personally. Kyle just happens to be providing an unusually clear case study in kafkatraps, double binds, and self-sealing arguments.

It started when he made judgments about my own life. When I questioned those judgments, the response eventually became to disengage and suggest that other users disengage from me as well.

That fascinated me. Whenever I end up in situations like this, my instinct is to understand what is actually happening. I’ve been through plenty of interpersonal conflicts, but I had never encountered an argument that felt so rhetorically strong while also feeling so disconnected from anything I could actually clarify, falsify, or resolve.

At this point, if Kyle continues reframing what happened, I’ve documented enough of the exchange to keep the record clear. I’m not interested in attacking him personally. I also acknowledge that earlier in the conflict I said some unnecessary things, and I apologize to the community for that and have already been deliberately avoiding rhetoric like that. When the onus was placed on me, however, I am not sure.

What interests me now is the structure of the arguments themselves. I have roughly a month’s worth of examples, and I’m considering making a separate thread dedicated specifically to these kinds of mental traps.

That would not be an indictment of Kyle as a person. I’m not trying to establish that he is “good” or “bad.” The point is that these argumentative structures are apparent far beyond this one interaction and, in my view, fairly common in this community. A live example simply makes them easier to examine.

The especially interesting part is how the structure can become self-sealing. If he keeps responding, the dispute continues and can be reframed again. If he stops responding, that can potentially be interpreted as him avoiding the issue or conceding it—which has been one of his accusations towards me, actually.

Likewise, my own attempts to clarify can be reframed as further evidence that I am evading something.

That is the phenomenon I’m interested in documenting: not Kyle himself, but the kind of argumentative loop in which nearly every possible response can be absorbed back into the original interpretation.

It is fascinating.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by yetineti

[LordFall]

@Joshe There’s a basic distinction here: I’m not judging anyone's inherent existential worth; I’m looking at functional competence and real-world utility.

If we use a stereotypical incel for example, they could argue that they don't need to provide value to society or women to be at peace with their own existence. If that's what someone wants to argue then feel free. You can make this argument to a wall you don't need other humans to validate your opinions on yourself.

Perhaps self-esteem is a better concept than value to talk about someone's own value in regards to their own opinion of it. Even then usually self-esteem has been studied and usually has to do with an individual being able to reach their goals in the society that they're based in. 

I based my argument on the idea of value being defined as the ability to create abundance for others. Abundance being defined as helping people solve their problems and achieve their goals.

There's only two main consistent lines of debate can be arguing against that definition or I guess arguing that you fulfill this more than I do, which if that's the case then more power to you, that's amazing. I always seek to learn from people that are more skilled than me at areas that I value. I cannot learn anything from someone unskilled but is delusional enough to think that they do bring value which is my reason for bringing up the subject in the first place. If we are to actualize ourselves then finding the best areas of life to do so and learning from people that are ahead of us in those lanes is self-evident. 

Calling ambition and high standards a "superiority orientation" is just the usual defense mechanism when people want to avoid accountability and a scorecard.

@yetineti You are completely stuck on a question I already answered. By default, human beings are not born with a high-level skillset that allows them to consistently solve other people's problems or create economic abundance. That has to be developed, trained, and proven. Scrutinizing me for applying that basic, universal reality to you—and turning that assumption into the entire pillar of your multi-post victim narrative—is pretty asinine.

Edited 6 hours ago by LordFall

[Joshe]

33 minutes ago, LordFall said:

Calling ambition and high standards a "superiority orientation" is just the usual defense mechanism when people want to avoid accountability and a scorecard.

I didn't call ambition and high standards a superiority orientation, lol. Each of these is their own thing.

And it's not a defense mechanism because I have nothing to defend, because I'm not seeing my self-worth relative to anyone else. I'm not even measuring my value to other people. Maybe that's the crux of it. You seem to be saying if you're not out here "helping people solve their problems and achieve their goals", then you're objectively low value. Is this what you're saying? 

You can operate that way, and that's fine, but that's YOUR game. And I do think the way you play it points to a superiority orientation when you say that people not playing that game are low value. When someone is preoccupied with the rank of others within the game they constructed, that's suspicious to me. 

By the rules defined in your game, someone like me is lower value than someone like you. Because I mostly only help my family, the few friends I have, and my clients. I'm currently not having a big impact on people at large. And I haven't told myself that I must do this. I don't even care how valuable I am to the world at large. Like a lot of people, I have a dream or two that involves having a big impact, but those dreams don't provide the same fuel for me as they might for you because I have near zero desire to be recognized by others as valuable. There is no scorecard for me. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Joshe

[LordFall]

@Joshe Taking care of your family, showing up for your friends, and delivering results for paying clients is real, substantial value. That’s not low value in my book at all. It's tangible, calculable utility within your sphere of influence.

The crux of my argument isn't that everyone needs to have a global impact to matter. The crux is rejecting the relativistic claim that value is purely subjective and that all uses of a man's time produce equal impact. They don't. An individual who provides for their family and solves problems for clients is objectively generating more functional utility than someone who only provides for themselves or is a dependent.

Where I push for more is on scale and leverage. Keeping impact strictly local is a valid choice, but the trade-off is that it leaves us as passive spectators to the decisions made by politicians and massive corporations. We live in an era where social media platforms and AI agents allow a single person to broadcast their message and create abundance for thousands or millions without burning out. I think we should steer conversations along these lines since that solves a lot of the victim mindset I see a lot of people on this forum have. Summarized by the simple adage "Get bitter or get better."

Aiming for that level of reach isn't about looking down on local responsibility, it’s about recognizing the unprecedented leverage we have today and challenging ourselves to maximize it.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@LordFall Do you think people have inherent value and are worthy, just as they are?

How does this tie into the concept of a person being valid, and how you do define validity?

[something_else]

@yetineti I agree with your underlying point, which is that when someone tries to enforce their system of value on me (which is what I interpret @LordFall as doing to you), my inherent reaction is to question it, or tell them to fuck off.

I think the problem you’ve run into is that you’re now trying to justify that stance at length, which leaves you playing the status game you’re trying to deconstruct. Better to simply not participate, or firmly stand your ground. Define your own internal values and measure yourself against those.

Ironically, doing that may well result in you providing more value to the world even under the external framework @LordFall is trying to box you into. I think that is also a point you have made before too, which I also agree with.

I don’t really disagree with @LordFall either. Providing value to others is important, and to some degree it’s part of living a good and successful life. Generally, being able to genuinely help other people will create more opportunities and better outcomes for you as well.

Where I disagree is that you don’t need to constantly measure yourself and others against these external hierarchies in order to do that, unless your goal is to rise to the very top of them. Most people don’t need that. You can define success according to your own values and still live a very fulfilling, valuable life.

For some people, their internal values will align very closely with the external measures society rewards. For others, they won’t. Not everybody who loves music wants to be a rockstar. Some people are perfectly content performing locally, making good music, connecting with people, and having that be enough. There’s nothing wrong with that.

I think you both just take very different approaches to life and have very different value systems, so you may never agree. And that’s fine.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

29 minutes ago, something_else said:

Where I disagree is that you don’t need to constantly measure yourself and others against these external hierarchies in order to do that, unless your goal is to rise to the very top of them. Most people don’t need that. You can define success according to your own values and still live a very fulfilling, valuable life.

Slam dunk.

29 minutes ago, something_else said:

For some people, their internal values will align very closely with the external measures society rewards. For others, they won’t. Not everybody who loves music wants to be a rockstar. Some people are perfectly content performing locally, making good music, connecting with people, and having that be enough. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Agree with this also. I do what I personally enjoy and its not about providing value. It just so happens my work has a lot of external value due to all of (if not all, I would argue) society inherently requiring hospital infrastructure. I couldn't give one fick about status, hierarchies or measuring up to someone else's standards. It is intrinsic motivation vs extrinsic. 

Quote

I think you both just take very different approaches to life and have very different value systems, so you may never agree. And that’s fine.

There is another issue being circled around - when someone's behaviour does not fit Lordfall's preferred interpretation, he infers an underlying pathology that explains their disagreement, rather than first considering whether his interpretation of their behaviour is simply wrong. Or simply just, you know, asking relational questions to ensure he has understood? It tends to convert an interpretation into an explanation of the person without sufficient evidence. And often, no evidence is actually given to warrant the conclusion - it is poor reasoning and epistemology.

Real turnoff.

Edited 2 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[LordFall]

33 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@LordFall Do you think people have inherent value and are worthy, just as they are?

How does this tie into the concept of a person being valid, and how you do define validity?

Good question, it is the fundamental axiom to base a conversation on value around.

I think people have some inherent value by virtue of being a life form but not much. For example if we snapped our finger and doubled the world population, our species wouldn't have double the life quality. It would probably plummet as a matter of fact.

Also it seems to be a function of marginal utility where if you don't know many people then each new person that you meet has a lot of value but when you have a wide social circle you can now afford to have more qualifications on who you spend your time with.

As for being "worthy"—worthy of what? 

We can simply talk about the limited time and energy we have in investing in others. We're each gonna have a moderately different standard for who qualifies but we can look at trends to see how we should build our life in order to attract the right people into it.

Most of the conversations we have on this dating section are about single men wanting to attract women. A simple principle I share often on this forum is that to become more attractive to women you must offer more value. It's a question that invites further questioning but a lot of times people fight me on this very idea which I find quite funny because it's a pretty easy position to defend.

Individual women are gonna have their individual criteria as to what type of man they like to hang around but generally being a guy that's financially independent, can communicate well, has a rich social life, is fun to be around and takes care of his appearance is gonna be a mold that fits what most women want.

Then the common objections are usually based in pointing out outliers "But Kyle I know a coke dealer in massive debt that's a dickhead that fucks a bunch of chicks, what you're saying is wrong!" From there we can also simply steer the conversation either in a cultural deconstruction way where we ask ourselves why that coke dealer's dating strategy is working for him or what I find most useful is taking our goals and building an action path from there. I think we can agree that becoming a coke dealer to build a high quality dating life is not the move and one of the simplest arguments against it is that it only offers superficial short term value as opposed to being a man that can offer value on the long term. 

Then we have the point on validity, same answer valid to who? I personally at this point in my life have big goals and not a lot of time to waste so I only hang out with people with whom we can mutually help each other achieve our goals. That doesn't mean I want society to get rid of people that don't fit that mold but I just don't enjoy spending time with them and I don't think they would enjoy spending time with me also. That's the mark of a solid society, having the diversity to support different lifestyles. 

I think it's a very important question to have especially in a world looming with AI revolution where we are presented with this question in real time globally as a species. Thankfully it seems that our capacity to produce a massive surplus of value to redistribute around will increase. Perhaps in a few decades we'll be able to take care of every human on earth and the concept of offering economic value to society in order to survive will be a distant memory. Even then I will say that an average AI UBI funded life is still gonna be inferior to a life full of purpose, ambition and adventures. In a world based on scarcity that question is much more poignant though.

Fundamentally it's a question about agency and optimization in reaching your goals though. The most valuable life to live is the one where you can accomplish your objectives in the deepest and most efficient way possible. I think what mostly gets in the way of that for men I see are limiting beliefs and lack of optimized strategy. That's mostly what I talk about on this forum. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@LordFall Correct me if I am mistaken - you are separating inherent value from practical value? So, if I understand you correctly, you're distinguishing inherent human worth from instrumental or relational value? People may have some baseline value simply by being alive, but who we choose to invest our limited time and energy in is necessarily based on a contextual form of value - and this is the context from which you typically reply on the forums?

If so that clears up a lot. Many users feel valid and valuable just as they are, intrinsically. There might be some confusion around context.

[LordFall]

@Natasha Tori Maru That's right. We could call how one feels about their inherent value 'Self-esteem' which is worth studying and I think ideally should love yourself unconditionally but still push yourself to reach your goals to enhance your own quality of life.

Where I don't agree with your earlier point on me invalidating people's life choice is that I don't shame people for wanting a life style that differs from mine. I tend to ask difficult questions that sometimes I think hints at people's blindspots but I don't think that constitutes a pathology.

For example in the spirituality section I was asking @Cathal how he feels about his sense of responsibility towards mankind while living as a monk.

He answered the first one then seemed to avoid the subsequent questions. It could be because I've touched on deep points about life that he's trying his best to avoid or I could've asked my questions in an uncouth manner that he felt didn't warrant a response. 

Either way I don't think tiptoeing around sensitive issues is an effective way to live one's life so especially on a forum about self-development and deep truth I tend to err towards the side of uncouthness rather than polite pleasantries. 

My aim in life is finding the best goals to have and the best way to achieve them. I engage on this forum with that core quest in mind. 

Edited 2 hours ago by LordFall

[Natasha Tori Maru]

12 minutes ago, LordFall said:

@Natasha Tori Maru That's right. We could call how one feels about their inherent value 'Self-esteem' which is worth studying and I think ideally should love yourself unconditionally but still push yourself to reach your goals to enhance your own quality of life.

Where I don't agree with your earlier point on me invalidating people's life choice is that I don't shame people for wanting a life style that differs from mine. I tend to ask difficult questions that sometimes I think hints at people's blindspots but I don't think that constitutes a pathology.

For example in the spirituality section I was asking @Cathal how he feels about his sense of responsibility towards mankind while living as a monk.

He answered the first one then seemed to avoid the subsequent questions. It could be because I've touched on deep points about life that he's trying his best to avoid or I could've asked my questions in an uncouth manner that he felt didn't warrant a response. 

Either way I don't think tiptoeing around sensitive issues is an effective way to live one's life so especially on a forum about self-development and deep truth I tend to err towards the side of uncouthness rather than polite pleasantries. 

My aim in life is finding the best goals to have and the best way to achieve them. I engage on this forum with that core quest in mind. 

Triggering people and provoking to make a point is uncharitable, though.

[Ulax]

Bro roasting everyone 

[Joseph Maynor]

@LordFall  You said you were an INTP.  You remind me a lot of Leo.  I guess he is an INTP too.  Good talk.  Watching now.

@yetineti  Nice guitar!  You're a 5w4 and I'm a 4w5 tri-type 4-5-9 sx/so/sp.

Edited 41 minutes ago by Joseph Maynor

[LordFall]

22 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

@LordFall  You said you were an INTP.  You remind me a lot of Leo.  I guess he is an INTP too.  Good talk.  Watching now.

@yetineti  Nice guitar!

I appreciate you saying that, Joseph. Leo’s emphasis on deep structural thinking and first-principles deconstruction definitely aligns with how my mind approaches reality.

Enjoy the stream, curious to hear your takeaways once you finish it!