Stop letting woman use you

[oOo]

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

 probably also the reason why you are drawn to a forum which is kinda male dominated 

Is that a joke? 

"Male dominated". Sounds like an oxymoron.

There's more yielding and baby talk than matured dominant masculinity.

Men flock to a forum to have their own spiritual immaturity appeased rather than maturely nourished and challenged responsibly.

This place reflects just a TikTok reel of useless commentary, wasting men's lives away, facilitating untamed belief into the ether of absurdity rather than untamed sovereign action that demands testability. It's the absence of testability that leads to the absence of genuine intelligent conversing and passing on of wisdom across the forum. Instead we get Orks without the masculine drive and courage to be an ork. 

So we need all the strong women we can get on this forum @Natasha Tori Maru. They pickup the slack for what most of the men here call "too much work and pain", while not realising they're acting as the mother these men never mourned the loss of in their existence to fill the void with the sustenance of life. Calling any masculine energy that remains dormant waiting to be unleashed further than the frog yelps most presently expel from their societally tamed throats.

We need strong women being women though, not babysitting responsibilities that the men on here are meant to own solely unto themselves. 

Going back to your use of the phrase "male dominated" @Olaf, shit, I'm scared more of a domesticated guinea pig. 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by oOo

[Natasha Tori Maru]

20 minutes ago, Joshe said:

I interpreted that you were trying to bring this advantage to my awareness when you said "I think you have been really well socialised and have sisters yeah?", as if it was lost on me. It is a good point, so sorry if I misinterpreted, but I wasn't sure how else to interpret it.

I actually just realized I may have been misinterpreting you a lot. Maybe you're just adding caveats that I've compressed, because I compress a lot, but I'm not sure because we have history where your responses clearly assumed ignorance on my part. Unless I've misinterpreted those instances or took one or two occasions as your default response pattern to me. 

I'm genuinely sorry if I've misinterpreted you. I'm just not sure that I have.

I think I am more pondering and thinking and less proposing an argument - or refuting you  Many of my responses are "hey, you triggered this pattern match or thought!" then I post.

The sisters part - I vaguely VAGUELY recall maybe you said that - but I cannot remember if it was you or another member (who was banned, forgot his name, but he had really good interesting views, I think his avatar was a jester). So I was hoping you would correct me by affirming/denying. And the assumption there was that if you did confirm you had a sister - this would explain why these social dynamics / mechanisms with women (and outside of the romance domain) are just totally obvious to you

I tend to be cautious of premature closure - which is sort of the opposite axis that you take, maybe? Steer toward closure + find the pattern across domains. I do that to for sure, but I like to pull back so I don't get stuck in frame lock (which I tended to fall into 4/5 years ago a lot). This isn't so good because my pondering and questioning can, if not put forth with clean, neutral rhetoric, can come across as me trying to rip apart someone's epistemology (and this can be deeply distressing to some people, so I am practicing being extra cautious). I think I often probe really deep trying to come up with heuristics I can apply - and even steal others heuristics they have developed.

I think many times you have replied to something I didn't say - but could be inferred. I have done the same with you as well! I find the continued dialogue an unusual exercise in Ni vs Ni that is almost amplifying weaknesses in different ways. Maybe functioning like a mirror. A god awefull house of mirrors warped one LOL

I am often not even trying to win. I don't need closure. But this can be infuriating to some  

Another factor is: my statements can sometimes be vague and when questioned or engaged they become clearer in meaning as I go (this isn't intentional, something I am trying to work on as well). Often troubles can be simply reduced down to the need for the question "what do you mean by that?"

Edited 3 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Joshe]

25 minutes ago, Olaf said:

if you are insecure and see yourself as low value, someone not responding means you got rejected.

I don't think you have to see yourself as low value to feel the sting of rejection. I think the highest value person on earth can feel it and the sting of rejection is natural.

The solution isn't to mask it with thoughts of your value. The solution is to train your interpretations upfront, so the sting never lands. Automatized antecedent-focused reappraisal isn't suppression. It actually prevents the negative appraisal from landing because you've used logic and reason to see the reality of the situation more clearly, and have found the wise relationship to it. Recited appraisals you don't believe never automatize, and you just end up faking it. "I'm high value" as an affirmation can't cut it, IMO. 

[LordFall]

13 minutes ago, Joshe said:

I don't think you have to see yourself as low value to feel the sting of rejection. I think the highest value person on earth can feel it and the sting of rejection is natural.

The solution isn't to mask it with thoughts of your value. The solution is to train your interpretations upfront, so the sting never lands. Automatized antecedent-focused reappraisal isn't suppression. It actually prevents the negative appraisal from landing because you've used logic and reason to see the reality of the situation more clearly, and have found the wise relationship to it. Recited appraisals you don't believe never automatize, and you just end up faking it. "I'm high value" as an affirmation can't cut it, IMO. 

How much you get hurt in rejection is also a function of your abundance. A lot of people are not in control of their dating life and feel like quality partners are something that happens to them every few years instead of something they can attract on their own so often times they are a devastated by rejection.

For a person with more abundance of dating partners rejection is more like disappointment you'll forget about in an hour rather than something that genuinely hurts you. 

[Joshe]

6 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I think I am more pondering and thinking and less proposing an argument - or refuting you  Many of my responses are "hey, you triggered this pattern match or thought!" then I post.

I gotcha. I'll keep that in mind. 

7 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

The sisters part - I vaguely VAGUELY recall maybe you said that - but I cannot remember if it was you or another member (who was banned, forgot his name, but he had really good interesting views, I think his avatar was a jester). So I was hoping you would correct me by affirming/denying. And the assumption there was that if you did confirm you had a sister - this would explain why these social dynamics / mechanisms with women (and outside of the romance domain) are just totally obvious to you

Yeah, you're remembering right. You, me and him had a convo talking about sisters and you were talking about your brother. The lee joker or something like that. I didn't know he got banned, wtf? 

13 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

This isn't so good because my pondering and questioning can, if not put forth with clean, neutral rhetoric, can come across as me trying to rip apart someone's epistemology (and this can be deeply distressing to some people, so I am practicing being extra cautious). I think I often probe really deep trying to come up with heuristics I can apply - and even steal others heuristics they have developed.

Haha, I see. That actually makes sense. I actually don't mind deep probes at all. I'll try to keep in mind this is a big driver for you, and see your probes as mining more so than critical audits, lol. 

18 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I think many times you have replied to something I didn't say - but could be inferred. I have done the same with you as well! I find the continued dialogue an unusual exercise in Ni vs Ni that is almost amplifying weaknesses in different ways. Maybe functioning like a mirror. A god awefull house of mirrors warped one LOL

Lol, yes, I've thought about this too. Like, is this some sort of strange Ni-Ni dynamic? Fucking weird, lol. 

[Olaf]

@oOo by male dominated, I mean many males, not that the "males" dominate the forum, atleast that wasn't my intention. 

[Joshe]

35 minutes ago, LordFall said:

How much you get hurt in rejection is also a function of your abundance. A lot of people are not in control of their dating life and feel like quality partners are something that happens to them every few years instead of something they can attract on their own so often times they are a devastated by rejection.

For a person with more abundance of dating partners rejection is more like disappointment you'll forget about in an hour rather than something that genuinely hurts you. 

That's true. But what I'm saying is it doesn't have to be this way. One can use logic and reason to see the truth of things such that healthy reappraisals replace the less accurate, unhealthy ones. I'm not sure this is accessible to everyone or what the challenges might be, as it came natural to me early on, but I think it's largely accessible and just takes practice. That said, it seems easy to do wrong, so I'm actually not sure.

Still, automatized antecedent-focused reappraisal (such a mouthful, lol) is probably one of the best self-help technologies that exists. I just came across the term today. It kinda seems like Psycho-cybernetics adjacent but pointed at situations instead of self-image. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

50 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Yeah, you're remembering right. You, me and him had a convo talking about sisters and you were talking about your brother. The lee joker or something like that. I didn't know he got banned, wtf? 

That's it! Yes and that was the user @theleelajoker

50 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Lol, yes, I've thought about this too. Like, is this some sort of strange Ni-Ni dynamic? Fucking weird, lol. 

While I can never be certain regarding MBTI - it is always INTJ's that I clash with on some fundamental, unnamed level. It feels like I agree but don't agree, I see but don't see. My Dad is an INTJ also and works with me *shudder* 

When I clash with him it is literally the immovable object meeting the unstoppable force. We only reconcile after stepping away, both of us going meta regarding the arguement and our own thinking, then re-approaching with either a new perspective or one of us becoming willing to toss theirs. Both of us are relentlessly persistent which can be great when applied to a permanent relationship (provided we can resolve conflict). I have become a lot better with resolution... But not necessarily lowering conflict 😅 

Needless to say I think it the Ni Ni clash can be a great avenue for growth

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Joshe]

54 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

So I was hoping you would correct me by affirming/denying. And the assumption there was that if you did confirm you had a sister - this would explain why these social dynamics / mechanisms with women (and outside of the romance domain) are just totally obvious to you

Yes, I grew up with my mom and my sister and my aunts, and my sister had many attractive friends and I hung out with them often. I even had all girl friend groups in school where I was the only guy in the friend group, and I've been genuine besties with a couple of hot girls. But that doesn't mean I didn't go through very similar challenges with the opposite sex as most other men go through, and it doesn't mean I don't understand crippling anxiety/fear regarding the opposite sex, because I went through that as well.

[Joshe]

10 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

My Dad is an INTJ also and works with me *shudder* 

When I clash with him it is literally the immovable object meeting the unstoppable force. We only reconcile after stepping away, both of us going meta regarding the arguement and our own thinking, then re-approaching with either a new perspective or one of us becoming willing to toss theirs. Both of us are relentlessly persistent which can be great when applied to a permanent relationship (provided we can resolve conflict). I have become a lot better with resolution... But not necessarily lowering conflict 😅 

Lol, that must be interesting. I've actually never known any INTJs in real life. Sounds about right though, lol. Stubborn, immovable. Fierce independence of thought. 

10 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Needless to say I think it the Ni Ni clash can be a great avenue for growth

Me too 😆

Edited 2 hours ago by Joshe

[LordFall]

@Natasha Tori Maru INTJs are the most literal type there is. For feeling types being factual doesn't really matter and for other intellect types like INTPs we can take a fact and just kinda ponder on it and be like okay I can see how perhaps this... could make sense.

For an INTJ 78 is not 78.4 or close to 77 it's 78 or fuck off you're wrong and probably dumb 

Edited 2 hours ago by LordFall

[Joshe]

6 minutes ago, LordFall said:

@Natasha Tori Maru INTJs are the most literal type there is. For a feeling type being factual doesn't really matter and for other intellect types like INTPs we can take a fact and just kinda ponder on it and be like okay I can see how perhaps this could make sense but for an INTJ 78 is not 78.4 or close to 77 it's 78 or fuck off you're wrong and probably dumb 

I'm an INTJ, and precision matters more or less depending on context. If the context doesn't call for precision and approximation is more efficient, that's what gets used. Not using the most efficient tool is what gets you called a dumbass, lol. 

INTPs care too much about precision in most all contexts. That's the problem, lol. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

12 minutes ago, Joshe said:

INTPs care too much about precision in most all contexts. That's the problem, lol. 

EXACTLY

Take THAT @LordFall

Precision vs accuracy maybe? We must unify to become the ultimate powerhouses 

[LordFall]

It's because you guys are panderers!

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Olaf said:

Even when it is like `I want you to be my boyfriend` just say no, NO. Why? Because you shouldn't go for any handouts: you decide when you are going to be in a relationship, you decide when you are gonna buy something for her, you decide when you are gonna do something or change something for her. Surprise her instead of following her and letting her take the lead. This is about being a leader and the number one thing of being a leader is to not be a FOLLOWER. Don't follow orders, as soon as you follow her orders, you are into her frame and you are being used. EVEN if you have sex with her, you would STILL have 0 power in the relationship, you are basically getting used. So whatever she suggests, just say no, "lets do this!!!" No. "Lets go there!!" NO. "Lets kiss!!" NO. NO NO NO!! The only guy that has control is the one who can say no and only does things on his terms.  

This feels very performative and try-hard.

If I were in a romantic dynamic with a guy who operated this way, I'd be feeling like he cared a bit too much about my opinion of him... and was trying to impress me and earn my validation by larping as a leader.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

49 minutes ago, Joshe said:

 But that doesn't mean I didn't go through very similar challenges with the opposite sex as most other men go through, and it doesn't mean I don't understand crippling anxiety/fear regarding the opposite sex, because I went through that as well.

100% 

If I understand you correctly - You possibly learned through direct, relentless feedback from reality/real world experience. Trial and error, and probably a good mix of variation within that experience (and contradictory feedback), meaning you incurred less bias. But also, to learn what you did most likely also meant you DIDN'T prematurely close in on a frame and become locked. I don't know how you experience Ni, but for me it is really tacit. I have no fucken idea how I come to the conclusions or knowings I have - and I continually have to reverse engineer from the conclusion explicitly to understand (and I've been burned by my tacit conclusions often enough now I make a really concerted effort to never simply roll with my 'Knowings"). So often I am taken aback by conversations based on game, PUA, frame etc 

I used to not understand why someone would need this sort of frame to guide them, because I so naturally built one up in what appears to be an unconscious way. It becomes a map vs territory issue. Learning the frame then applying (and learning its limitations in the process) vs learning and building a frame from direct experience. Both definitely require challenges, fear, anxiety and courage. Both have different types of pitfalls.

Explicit frames being learned and applied, to me, seem so alien... but I see the use. And I have come to use these methods as an alternative to my straight Ni. I am almost trying to break my Ni at this time in my life, if that makes sense. to "get out' of it, because it is so much of my processing I cannot make it out clearly. I cannot see my eyes.

Edited 1 hour ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[oOo]

25 minutes ago, Emerald said:

This feels very performative and try-hard.

If I were in a romantic dynamic with a guy who operated this way, I'd be feeling like he cared a bit too much about my opinion of him... and was trying to impress me and earn my validation by larping as a leader.

Well at least he's trying. I mean c'mon, you come across as one of the most try hard women on the forum! But its okay, it an't all bad! 

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

@oOo by male dominated, I mean many males, not that the "males" dominate the forum, atleast that wasn't my intention. 

I was having a laugh haha, a primal urge that informs me the men need pushing on here still. I can't be too compassionate when all they're able to sense is the light within them that leads to further blindness. That's the sad reality, you gotta spell it out, test it out and rinse it out, then march the fuck on to the beat of your own drum.

7 hours ago, Olaf said:

Okay so one of the biggest mistakes you can make as a men is letting women use you. It doesn´t mean to never be generous or just give nothing at all to her.This is all about frame, are you sucking up to her frame or is she sucking up to your frame. Even when it is like `I want you to be my boyfriend` just say no, NO. Why? Because you shouldn't go for any handouts: you decide when you are going to be in a relationship, you decide when you are gonna buy something for her, you decide when you are gonna do something or change something for her. Surprise her instead of following her and letting her take the lead. This is about being a leader and the number one thing of being a leader is to not be a FOLLOWER. Don't follow orders, as soon as you follow her orders, you are into her frame and you are being used. EVEN if you have sex with her, you would STILL have 0 power in the relationship, you are basically getting used. So whatever she suggests, just say no, "lets do this!!!" No. "Lets go there!!" NO. "Lets kiss!!" NO. NO NO NO!! The only guy that has control is the one who can say no and only does things on his terms.  

There is something to hair raise here though, and that's just hidden fear I think you may have as many guys can relate to you relative to their own individual experiences.

To me on the face of it, I think this is because you fear that your present behavioural patterns in a relationship are not congruent with healthy masculine feminine dynamics relative to the relationship you're looking for perhaps.

I sense a tendency towards hidden codependency, and your words here may just be a reaction formation to that as an identity protection.

Understand that this is a logical reaction within your nervous system while you figure out the most rational path towards achieving the same result without this kind of 'try hard force'. This is going to take deeper work from you though Olaf, and you already know this as well.

Personally, I think you should feel free to explore this pattern you're presently going through in a flexible way, this way you're both appeasing the identity need as it presently exists while not experiencing the repercussions of any of its rigidity. 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by oOo

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, oOo said:

Well at least he's trying.

The issue is that he's trying too hard to impress the woman with the "I'm in control. So, no, no, no, no." performance. 

So, even as he's trying to be the leader... he is actually defaulting to whichever frame and actions he thinks will impress the woman the very most. 

So, he's not just letting her control the frame... he's letting his PROJECTION of her control the frame.

And this is easy to read, from the woman's perspective.

And honestly, it will just come across as kind of goofy.

That's just the reality of it.

And it's much nicer to let someone know they're making a mistake, rather than simply allowing him to keep making the same mistake and being like, "It's okay. At least you're trying."

The former is honesty and tough kindness. The latter is nice but not honest or kind.

[LordFall]

Also I think this needs to be said but enthusiastic consent is a pretty key part here. Instead of cosplaying as king of the world you can literally find women that are begging to be dominated 

https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMpersonals/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMcommunity/

Literally a whole niche of dating that has weekly events in any major city. Visit FetLife and thank me later. 

Edited 1 hour ago by LordFall

[Joshe]

18 minutes ago, oOo said:

you come across as one of the most try hard women on the forum! 

This is like the 3rd time I've heard this. I don't get that impression at all and think you guys are reading her wrong. I think she just likes exploring ideas and sharing her thoughts. Not sure how you guys jump to try-hard. Like, I get the sense she literally doesn't give a fuck, lol. So, I'm hopping in just to say that I think the perception is wrong.