Stop letting woman use you

[Olaf]

@Natasha Tori Maru Also an interesting question could be. How much do you feel you had to be in your more masculine energy, perhaps because of a lack of masculine men around you? I am not saying that it is the case, but just a question to also consider with what you wrote.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, Olaf said:

@Natasha Tori Maru but you have to admit you are quite a unique woman, hahaha 

Yes I am really an odd ball - I'm like, way off the end of the bell curve  

I think I have a mature perspective, but at the same time, I often get poked fun at for having masculine interests and generally being a but more analytical. I definitely don't become so swept up in emotions like most women - but I am extremely emotionally expressive. I let them out really quickly and intensely and they are done. I don't hold onto stuff.

I think if you want a woman to be able to be safe and secure in her feminine qualities, providing that environment is essential - which dovetails into some of your points.

[KosmicGeng]

5 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I don't want or need a man to lead. I am fine with whatever arises naturally as a dynamic. And if I am not fine with it I problem solve accordingly.

That is a very enjoyable quality I had some women friends, where this occured or even within a relationship, and it's nice to be conscious and rest in a being state and let go of everything, instead of constantly being in doing mode, leading and acting out the YANG masculine force in order to go for progress etc. or any type of more heavnish type of experience in my experience, consciously leading for even a balanced man as I am balanced even according to Yin & Yang theory, is still a core desire for yang essence, the level of penetration if a guy is not completely yin, has to go to some type of direction or purpose, leading or not, some type of virtue has to be put to the "test" before it can be put to rest and more of a man of 0 can shine forth, but I am still also in the progress of developing that, especially also focusing on the core issue of love & compassion in a relationship, to me compassion comes easier than love, love I get very mystical & existential experiences, so idk if I even yearn for a relationship based on love that goes that deep, it's odd being the "tragic romantic" as 4 in the enneagram pulls in a different type of depth, but this is more a typology aware response, I did the original courses and found even more information, so idk how to handle the complexity of others at times anyhow I stop here. 

[Joshe]

46 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

The whole idea is that you find someone you align with and they are on your team. A cooperative system.

Nah bro. You gotta let the bitch know who is boss, because you know, that's what leader men do.

@Olaf Trying to appear to be a leader actually just makes you look like a lost boy. Do you also pose with steeple fingers like Elon Musk during serious convo with your girl?

All this micromanagement of how you're perceived is actually hurting how you're perceived. Abandon ship.

When your tact with women is to vigilantly run a script that aims to manage her perception of you, you're actually operating FROM HER FRAME!!! She's still writing your script bro. You will literally be perceived like a weak beta with this approach because it comes across as insecure overcompensation, and it will be snuffed out, sooner or later, and you will ruin everything you worked for. 

The solution is to fix the base, not the content. Become a non-needy man with healthy boundaries and you don't have to manage frame. You just say yes or no as you feel, not yes or no depending on her.

Edited 2 hours ago by Joshe

[something_else]

Just now, Joshe said:

When your tact with women is to vigilantly run a script that aims to manage her perception of you, you're actually operating FROM HER FRAME!!!

Bingo

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, Olaf said:

@Natasha Tori Maru Also an interesting question could be. How much do you feel you had to be in your more masculine energy, perhaps because of a lack of masculine men around you? I am not saying that it is the case, but just a question to also consider with what you wrote.

I don't feel like I need to be in a masculine frame at all. Ever. 

Maybe this is because it is natural for me. When it isn't natural for a women to express herself in a masculine way, it feels like an energy drain on the system. Most women, to ensure their safety, have to work. Corporate environments can mean operating from a masculine frame. But women need to do this, because they need financial independence. Often a women operating in an environment like that when it isn't natural to them can potentially overcompensate. They do not know how to be gentle, kind and firm. They overstep and think force is needed. Or dominance. This might be what many men see and dislike - often pinned as feminism. 

I work in commercial construction - so it definitely isn't a lack of masculine men around me

I actually fly in the face of most women in leadership (and especially construction) - I lead from what I would consider a feminine frame. I never use force. I align teams through relationships and constantly reinforce we are all on the same side looking for the same outcome. I lead emotionally and through relational understanding. I never really need to order anyone around. I incentivise people and apply leverage. I am competent and know my shit - once I am able to transmit this to others, they are generally onside.

I have the most trouble with other women in lead roles trying to use force against me, or misunderstanding which results in biased treatment.

Dunno if that is feminine or masculine now I think about it!

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe I think you have been really well socialised and have sisters yeah? That helps A LOT.

It is weird because I see these frames and structures applied to dating and think they are rubbish. But maybe they are provisional for people who have not had strong platonic relationships with women? Throw it all away at the end...

I also get a weird paradoxical sense: by saying "I need to do this, be this" am I not telling myself subconsciously "I am NOT that"?

[Olaf]

@Natasha Tori Maru you might naturally have more masculine energy as you said, probably also the reason why you are drawn to a forum which is kinda male dominated hahaha yeah there is more feminism in the western world and woman taking on more masculine roles, which I am not completly against, but sometimes it does make me wonder if woman can feel feminine with a men after all of that, which isn't really the biggest issue in the world, but still a potential issue.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, Olaf said:

@Natasha Tori Maru you might naturally have more masculine energy as you said, probably also the reason why you are drawn to a forum which is kinda male dominated hahaha yeah there is more feminism in the western world and woman taking on more masculine roles, which I am not completly against, but sometimes it does make me wonder if woman can feel feminine with a men after all of that, which isn't really the biggest issue in the world, but still a potential issue.

That can be an issue - a woman not being able to move easily between masculine / feminine polarity.

I wouldn't get home to my partner and start talking about SOP's around housework and timetabling it all (and if I did, it would simply be a coed task to fix some other issue that I wouldn't need to control, simply negotiate). I get home and start dancing and expressing  

I tend to let go of control. I dislike it. I prefer antifragile - be like the fire to the wind. Wind blows, I don't get knocked down or pushed around. I be the fire, I use the wind! Maybe this is closer to chaos as a feminine concept that the pure crazy Peterson tends to frame it as.

[Olaf]

@KosmicGeng sorry but you write really long paragraphs hahaha I don't have the time or energy right now to read them

[Ulax]

"Baby... I need you to drive me to the hospital. I've just gone into labor!" Olaf: NO!

I agree on not following orders. But applying game concepts to relationships is dangerous.

[KosmicGeng]

2 minutes ago, Olaf said:

sorry but you write really long paragraphs hahaha I don't have the time or energy right now to read them

All good it's self-serving reflections partially, I enjoy reading what you do, enjoy socialization man! I see very nice and chill things, I hope I can finally go out solo for a while and not be haunted by crazy ppl, and turn crazy. 

Or I hope I can solo travel at one point again that was just awesome seeing China alone. 

Edited 1 hour ago by KosmicGeng

[Olaf]

@KosmicGeng what crazy people are haunting you? hehe sounds like you have an ex stalking you

[Olaf]

@Ulax hahahahahaha

[Joshe]

4 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I think you have been really well socialised and have sisters yeah? That helps A LOT.

Yes, I'm aware of how things are more or less difficult depending on circumstances. That doesn't mean the solutions as I see them are not correct or useless, even if the climb is higher. 

7 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

But maybe they are provisional for people who have not had strong platonic relationships with women? Throw it all away at the end...

Yes, that's how learning works, lol. 

[Olaf]

@Natasha Tori Maru yes the only issue would be when you would be such in a masculine energy that you would never be able to let it go with him. Or you look at your men and you think "bitch I am more a men then you" hahaha but that might be more a problem on his side lol

[Natasha Tori Maru]

4 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Yes, I'm aware of how things are more or less difficult depending on circumstances. That doesn't mean the solutions as I see them are not correct or useless, even if the climb is higher. 

I did not mean to imply you weren't aware. I didn't assume you weren't. Just making conversation.

6 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Yes, that's how learning works, lol. 

I think I was illustrating that this is the ideal way - but treating the frame as provisional.... I feel it needs to be reinforced more. I can find many examples of people who don't treat it that way!!! Why lol?

[Joshe]

Automatized antecedent-focused reappraisal. 

 

[Olaf]

@Joshe it is basically self-image: if you are insecure and see yourself as low value, someone not responding means you got rejected. When you belief you are the shit, someone not responding can mean anything, you might even turn it around and think they are playing hard to get. That is why it is hard to help insecure people, because they think everything is showing them that they are not wanted and loved, everything is a rejection. Even a joke would be taken out of context and used to make them feel lower about themself. Basically RAS, selective focus towards things that will make you think more shitty about yourself.

[Joshe]

4 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I did not mean to imply you weren't aware. I didn't assume you weren't. Just making conversation.

I interpreted that you were trying to bring this advantage to my awareness when you said "I think you have been really well socialised and have sisters yeah?", as if it was lost on me. It is a good point, so sorry if I misinterpreted, but I wasn't sure how else to interpret it.

I actually just realized I may have been misinterpreting you a lot. Maybe you're just adding caveats that I've compressed, because I compress a lot, but I'm not sure because we have history where your responses clearly assumed ignorance on my part. Unless I've misinterpreted those instances or took one or two occasions as your default response pattern to me. 

I'm genuinely sorry if I've misinterpreted you. I'm just not sure that I have.