Lindsay Clancy -Mother of 3 kills her kids during psychotic episode

[Thought Art]

@Willy Phallicus Yesh maybe it was taking all those pills and falling out of a window and getting paralyzed… 

[Thought Art]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

So do most school shooters? No one ever says they aren’t responsible for their actions.

Actually, each event is taken on a case by case basis and we shouldn’t make these sweeping statements 

[Elliott]

School shootings take extensive planning and a lot of steps, with a motive

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Elliott

[Willy Phallicus]

2 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Yesh maybe it was taking all those pills and falling out of a window and getting paralyzed… 

Do or do not. There is no try.

Almost doesn't count.

[Elliott]

8 minutes ago, Willy Phallicus said:

Didnt put enough effort into it like she managed with the kids.

Guess she got tired or something.

How do you think she hid her depravity from her husband, he LEFT HER ALONE WITH HIS KIDS! What an idiot, amiright? Or was he in on it? Negligence on his part? Shouldn't men protect their kids? I dunno. B1tches just crazy

Edited 2 hours ago by Elliott

[Thought Art]

I pray for her and her family. She was failed by medical experts, lost 3 of her kids and her ability to walk. Has to carry the guilt and shame of this terrible situation. She is now hated and gossiped about by millions. She has lost everything. So sad.

These medications are dangerous and no one should have to go through this. 

I respect people have differing views on this. But, be careful of the narratives you create…. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Thought Art

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Elliott You've been warned about your crude rhetoric due to interactions in this thread.

Stop.

[Elliott]

Just now, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Elliott You've been warned about your crude rhetoric due to interactions in this thread.

Stop.

No

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, Elliott said:

No

Alright then, take a break for a bit. See you next week.

[Joshe]

Check this out:

Real psychosis ≠ psychosis caused it

"Was it real" and "did it cause this" are two totally different questions, and answering the first one doesn't answer the second.

Why realness doesn't entail causation, even for a command hallucination. This is the crux, because intuitively a voice saying "kill them" during the killing feels like it must be the cause if it's real. Three logical wedges say otherwise.

First, the clinically documented one: most people who experience command hallucinations don't obey them. Compliance is the exception, not the rule. So "real voice" and "voice that determined action" are demonstrably separable states — the population of voice-hearers is mostly non-compliers, which means a voice's presence underdetermines the behavior.

Second, overdetermination: she could have a real hallucination and independent sufficient reasons (the months of suicidal ideation, the conviction the children would suffer without her — the prosecution's alternate theory). If both were present, the act might have happened without the voice, in which case the voice was real and causally idle — a passenger, not a driver.

Third, and most important for the legal-shaped version of the question: even a real, genuinely motivating voice doesn't entail lost capacity. Hearing a command, being moved by it, and being unable to refuse it are three distinct states. The insanity question isn't "did psychosis influence her" but "did it strip her ability to do otherwise" — and influence doesn't entail compulsion, logically or clinically.

Edited 2 hours ago by Joshe

[Thought Art]

@Joshe I think when you read it her history, it clear it wasn’t just a verbal command hallucinations. It came with a weight, and it was a reality and paradigm shift from the sounds of it. Clearly, there was a deeper issue if it was caused by psychosis then just hearing a voice say kill your kids and yourself to be free of this hell.

She was open to others around her she was having thoughts of killing herself in the kids in the days and weeks prior. Really, she should not have been left alone with them until she returned to normal.

It’s not normal to not sleep for weeks, etc. It’s hard to exactly the depth of the self deception she could have faced.

She was a delivery nurse, and was very focused on the wellbeing of her kids for years. It’s so odd.

I have to be willing to more openly consider she may have planned it, and I allowed my mind to open and take in more opposing views to my current one.

Though, currently think the medication and over all mental health lead to this.

https://abcnews.com/US/wireStory/killing-kids-lindsay-clancy-searched-hallucinations-psychosis-ways-135625829

“Her attorneys say Clancy did everything she could to seek help: She turned to multiple outpatient providers, tried various drugs they prescribed, called a suicide hotline, went to an emergency room, and approached but wasn’t accepted into a hospital-based, full-day treatment program for women with postpregnancy mental health problems. Clancy even checked herself into a psychiatric hospital for several days.

Rather than improving, her condition worsened on the ever-remixed cocktail of psychiatric medications, some of them problematic for bipolar patients, her attorneys and family say.”

Though, it’s unclear to me now what she told her doctors who prescribed the medication as i am seeing conflicting reports.

Edited 1 hour ago by Thought Art

[Emerald]

53 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

This is clearly not the case. There are men and women who are sane and kill their kids. 
 

However, on a case by case basis…

We see in this case clear suggestion of medical induced schizophrenia and attempt to end her immense suffering caused by the medications 

I'm not asking you about it. And I'm not asking if there are such cases in reality.

I'm asking Elliot specifically if he believes that mothers who kill their children only ever have a motive of insanity.

[Emerald]

32 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Check this out:

Real psychosis ≠ psychosis caused it

"Was it real" and "did it cause this" are two totally different questions, and answering the first one doesn't answer the second.

Why realness doesn't entail causation, even for a command hallucination. This is the crux, because intuitively a voice saying "kill them" during the killing feels like it must be the cause if it's real. Three logical wedges say otherwise.

First, the clinically documented one: most people who experience command hallucinations don't obey them. Compliance is the exception, not the rule. So "real voice" and "voice that determined action" are demonstrably separable states — the population of voice-hearers is mostly non-compliers, which means a voice's presence underdetermines the behavior.

Second, overdetermination: she could have a real hallucination and independent sufficient reasons (the months of suicidal ideation, the conviction the children would suffer without her — the prosecution's alternate theory). If both were present, the act might have happened without the voice, in which case the voice was real and causally idle — a passenger, not a driver.

Third, and most important for the legal-shaped version of the question: even a real, genuinely motivating voice doesn't entail lost capacity. Hearing a command, being moved by it, and being unable to refuse it are three distinct states. The insanity question isn't "did psychosis influence her" but "did it strip her ability to do otherwise" — and influence doesn't entail compulsion, logically or clinically.

My understanding is that people who have command hallucinations tend to engage in a lot of coping strategies to drown out the voice... like listening to music or praying.

From what seems to be the case in Lindsay Clancy's story is that she just heard the voice and didn't do the usual coping strategies that people with command hallucinations do.

This leads me to believe that she didn't actually experience a command hallucination.

[Joshe]

5 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Clearly, there was a deeper issue if it was caused by psychosis then just hearing a voice say kill your kids and yourself to be free of this hell.

Or a deliberate motive. The problem is we can't know. 

6 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

She was open to others around her she was having thoughts of killing herself in the kids in the days and weeks prior.

Right, and this is why she might actually get a NGRI verdict. But how can we know it wasn't planned? Think about it. There are many moms out there who want to be free from their kids for whatever reason. Probably tens of thousands in the US, or at least thousands. I even see local stories pop up like this every couple of months. Recently, a mother and father killed their daughter and tried to dispose of her body in an acid barrel, then called the police and told them the location where she "went missing". The police found the body in the barrel with the parent's DNA all over the outside of the barrel. The ones that make the news are just the ones that went through with it. 

So, if you really wanted to kill your kids and not be imprisoned, it's not unreasonable to consider someone could concoct a plan that involves admitting to doctors you want to kill your kids months in advance and get yourself on a ton of meds.

Again, I'm not saying she did this, I'm just saying it's not unreasonable at all to have on the table, especially with this country's fascination with true crime. If a moderately intelligent person and good actor wants to get away with murder, it's possible. If she has below average IQ, I would probably be more inclined to think she didn't plan it. TBH, I haven't dove deep into her story. 

16 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

It’s not normal to not sleep for weeks, etc. It’s hard to exactly the depth of the self deception she could have faced.

She was a delivery nurse, and was very focused on the wellbeing of her kids for years. It’s so odd.

Life changes, people change. It's not off at all to me that someone who was once happy became unhappy. Also, a lot of people are self-deceived that they're happy and then wake up to the fact that they're not. This could have happened with her, as it's common.

[Joshe]

4 minutes ago, Emerald said:

This leads me to believe that she didn't actually experience a command hallucination.

Yeah, I lean that way too but how do we know that the cocktail of meds she was on couldn't have produced something like a command hallucination? Have the experts said that's not a thing? 

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Joshe said:

Right, and this is why she might actually get a NGRI verdict. But how can we know it wasn't planned? Think about it. There are many moms out there who want to be free from their kids for whatever reason. Probably tens of thousands in the US, or at least thousands. I even see local stories pop up like this every couple of months. Recently, a mother and father killed their daughter and tried to dispose of her body in an acid barrel, then called the police and told them the location where she "went missing". The police found the body in the barrel with the parent's DNA all over the outside of the barrel. The ones that make the news are just the ones that went through with it. 

So, if you really wanted to kill your kids and not be imprisoned, it's not unreasonable to consider someone could concoct a plan that involves admitting to doctors you want to kill your kids months in advance and get yourself on a ton of meds.

Again, I'm not saying she did this, I'm just saying it's not unreasonable at all to have on the table, especially with this country's fascination with true crime. If a moderately intelligent person and good actor wants to get away with murder, it's possible. If she has below average IQ, I would probably be more inclined to think she didn't plan it. TBH, I haven't dove deep into her story. 

That's the way that I'm thinking about it as well. 

If she planned it out in advance to build evidence to use in her NGRI case, that seems to fit better with the evidence, in my opinion.

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Basman said:

Justice isn't only for the person on trial. This almost reads like you care more about the perpetrator than the victims.

Don't mistake me explaining what an insanity defense is for me claiming that the claims to insanity in this particular case are valid. So eager to jump to conclusions eh. Almost exactly what I criticized these kinds of threads of doing earlier when trolling and insulting was the main part of the discussion (and which it still is apparently). Really a shitfest here.

Edited 1 hour ago by Carl-Richard

[Emerald]

20 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Yeah, I lean that way too but how do we know that the cocktail of meds she was on couldn't have produced something like a command hallucination? Have the experts said that's not a thing? 

I watched an expert testifying earlier today who was talking about why he didn't suspect that she was experiencing a command hallucination.

And he said that, with people who experience command hallucinations there's a tendency to use coping mechanisms to drown them out... like praying. And Lindsay Clancy wasn't doing that.

There's also a tendency for people with these hallucinations to experience them periodically. And it would be uncommon for someone to experience them once and then not again.

He also found it unlikely because she had said that she was experiencing these hallucinations all the way throughout the duration of the 20 minutes, with the external voice repeating the same phrase over and over the entire time.

He may have brought up another point, as well. But those are the ones that I'm recalling.

But he was suspecting that she was committing suicide and filicide... killing her children out of love and because she didn't want to be separated from them when she commits suicide. And I don't know about that explanation.

To me, it seems like that's a reach to assume her motive was to kill her children out of love.

But in that case, she'd still be criminally responsible for their deaths. So, he was in favor of her being seen as guilty. But his reasoning about the motive seemed very speculative.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

My ex had schizophrenia.

Regularly experienced command hallucinations. They actually started when I was with him. I remember when they had just begun - he would grab my arm and say "can you hear that sound like a kids voice?" as the water from the sink drained. They started as sounds within sounds. He would constantly be looking for the voices inside other sounds - then one day the voices appeared to him separate from the other sounds. They jumped out.

He always stopped, listened to them, then told me what they said. For a good chuck he knew they weren't real - especially as he often asked me about them. I was definitely his anchor to reality for a bit.

One day he spontaneously started to listen and follow them. I got home to all the windows sealed shut, sheets and nails covering any window or door with a vision panel... Shadow people outside apparently. We got him help and medication soon after.

Just thought I would share what I saw of auditory hallucinations. Genuinely seemed he was aware they were disembodied voices - but there was a change where he didn't trust them as telling then truth - then he did trust them. He felt they were like guardians (he knew they weren't coming from a real source ever since they "separated" from other sounds). But he also said confusing things like he thought they were real.

Edited 59 minutes ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[JoshB]

The situation gets even more insane when you realize you are her. 

I dont think anyone should go to prison, I think getting true and proper help is whats needed. No matter how long someone sits in a cell it doesnt erase what happened. But some people are so far gone that sitting in that cell is the last resort of help they can get. 

 

 

Edited 20 minutes ago by JoshB