The Manosphere vs. Me Steelmanning Women

[Alexop]

I will present some popular claims of the manospshere/redpill/incels and I will try to counter it in the most unbiased way possible

 

Claim: Women are very shallow and incapable of deep thought

Me: It is true that women, in general, are less nerdy and less prone to mapping the world with theories and models. But they often read lots of books, they document themselves quite well and even if they did not sit and contemplate those ideas from scratch, they are able to deeply understand them. I meet women who understand politics much better and are less biased than most men I met. They don't contemplate as much as men but I notice how good they are at observing things. They observe stuff that men sometimes don't, and observation can be a great tool for understanding! Where I can agree that they can be somewhat shallow is attraction. Especially now when they have so many options, they might choose the wrong guy for them because they had a feeling he is okay. Yea, some more logic and less feelings when choosing a life partner can help here.

Claim: women become less attractive if they are too mature and “nerdy”, because they basically become men.

Me: I did not notice that. I met very mature women that were able to sustain deep philosophical talks, but I did not feel less attracted to them, in fact I became more attracted. Even if they were in that way, they kept their cute, soft, flexible feminine vibe. And they did not try to invert the polarity, I felt like a man and they felt like women the whole time. If they trust your lead, they will stay feminine and fluid like water. Maturity is not equal to masculinity. You can be very mature in many ways. 

Claim: women just won't accept that they are wrong.

Me: well… that can hold some water. In general, women trust their feelings more that men. Especially if they are less mature. If you hurt their feelings with hard critique, they can become avoidant and defensive. But we have to be careful that we compare apples to apples not peaches to apples. If you compare an Instagram girl with some philospher, well yea. There are more and more very mature women who challenge these stereotypes. Who can accept good critique. Depends how you deliver it. Be more gentle and they will be open to change their minds. The same shit I can say about men. I met lots of men (and I do it too sometimes) that have a rock hard ego, who will never ever want to accept that they are wrong.

Claim: feminism had destroyed society

Me: It is true that the last wave of woke feminism has become a charade of immature shit, but per total, feminism has raised women up. Feminism is wrong in regards to biology, men and women are not the same and should not be the same. But the hard stereotyes of the past had to change. Humanity goes to the other extreme in many of such cases before it stabilizes in the middle. Thanks to feminism, we have very educated women who are able of deep thought, self-sufficiency, maturity, equal systemic rights (bank accounts, voting rights, abortion rights etc.) . In fact feminism has done such a good work for women that men are lacking behind. And that is the thing that has to happen right now. We need some sort of men's movement that will raise men up.

Edited 7 hours ago by Alexop

[enchanted]

Good job. Yes all prespectives should be considered and understood whether or not we belong to that group or even if we agree with it. Mel Gibson's movie "What women what" shows how understanding anothers' perspective is a literal superpower.

This is even good news for self- centered egotistical power hungry people as nothing let's you dominate your enemy more than thoroughly understanding how they see the world. Yet often these people ignore the perspectives of others. 

However I recommend using this superpower for the common good. 

Edited 5 hours ago by enchanted

[Alexop]

We should steelman as much as possible before we criticise. 

You don't like something? Force yourself to find at least 3 arguments for why that thing can actually be likable.

[aurum]

Their understanding of feminism alone is so obviously self-biased.

 

[Alexop]

43 minutes ago, aurum said:

Their understanding of feminism alone is so obviously self-biased.

 

We have to define who "they" are. There are some immature and some mature feminists. In the same way you have mature conservatives who come with good points, and you have neo-nazis who are retarded all the way.

[LordFall]

5 hours ago, Alexop said:

Claim: women become less attractive if they are too mature and “nerdy”, because they basically become men.

Me: I did not notice that. I met very mature women that were able to sustain deep philosophical talks, but I did not feel less attracted to them, in fact I became more attracted. Even if they were in that way, they kept their cute, soft, flexible feminine vibe. And they did not try to invert the polarity, I felt like a man and they felt like women the whole time. If they trust your lead, they will stay feminine and fluid like water. Maturity is not equal to masculinity. You can be very mature in many ways. 

 

I think this can happen but not as described. A lot of career women become high income and then their dating options because a bit limited as usually women like to date men that earn more then them. It can also rub off men the wrong way that have a victim complex and default to sour grapes and disliking those women as opposed to just learning to seduce and attract women that make more money than them and offering value in other ways than financial or just working on their career/business and levelling up their income potential. 

[Joseph Maynor]

One thing to keep in mind is masculinity and femininity correlate with male and female but there is no one-to-one.  So for example, there are many masculine women and feminine men.  It is more important to understand how different personalities operate than the over-simplified duality between man and woman.  

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Joseph Maynor

[aurum]

38 minutes ago, Alexop said:

We have to define who "they" are. There are some immature and some mature feminists. In the same way you have mature conservatives who come with good points, and you have neo-nazis who are retarded all the way.

My use of "they" was referring to the redpillers.

Of course feminists are also self-biased. But that's a different topic.

[Alexop]

4 minutes ago, aurum said:

My use of "they" was referring to the redpillers.

Of course feminists are also self-biased. But that's a different topic.

Got you