you can't change your inner game without action

[Olaf]

I don't think you can change inner game, unless you are doing infield approaches. Here me out. JUST working on your beliefs, what you think about yourself, how attractive you are etc. It feels like a lie. It is like you are trying to earn the confidence without taking the action to get that confidence. Yet if you take action, naturally you start to feel more attractive. Whether it is true or not, when I am in flow state, I see a girl, I look her in the eyes and my mind goes "she wants me" and I am 100% believing that thought.

This might sound super narcissistic, but these confident thoughts just come up naturally when you are taking action. There is no way you can ONLY do inner game, look a girl in the eyes and think authentically that she wants you or that you are attractive, in fact it would be covering up your own authentic thoughts that tell you, you are unattractive and not confident. Maybe listen to the thoughts, take action to become more confident. And then naturally you will have good inner game. 

I think it isn't bad to think you are unattractive. If you aren't in flow state, I can feel like that too, but in flow state, you naturally start to think you are him. You naturally start to assume girls are into you, like authentically, I don't create a thought in my mind that she wants me, it is like I feel that she wants me. And who says I am making it up? lol. 

And btw, I don't think it is about having balls of steel, just saying "hi" to people could be an okay start, then maybe ask for directions and eventually approach, it doesn't have to be this cliff-feeling moment where you are going for the hardest approach straight away, in fact it probably could backfire on your confidence having that approach. Just like going in the sea, you do it step by step, slowly adjusting. 

One more note: I do come from a background of spirituality and doing basic inner work already, so if you are highly traumatised or have some mental issues, like this wouldn't be enough of course! You would need medication, a therapist or psychiatric help etc. And only after that, take action, hope you get the point. 

Edited 17 hours ago by Olaf

[Raze]

You can actually but just not with self lies or affirmation which you seem to be alluding to.

[Ulax]

Yes.

'Inner game is the answer' has got to be the biggest load of bs i've ever heard.

[Olaf]

@Ulax it is like manifestation courses, which makes people feel good about not taking action

[Valach]

9 hours ago, Olaf said:

I don't think you can change inner game, unless you are doing infield approaches. Here me out. JUST working on your beliefs, what you think about yourself, how attractive you are etc. It feels like a lie. It is like you are trying to earn the confidence without taking the action to get that confidence. Yet if you take action, naturally you start to feel more attractive. Whether it is true or not, when I am in flow state, I see a girl, I look her in the eyes and my mind goes "she wants me" and I am 100% believing that thought.

You have a misunderstanding what innergame is. It is not some affirmation you tell yourself.

Quote

This might sound super narcissistic, but these confident thoughts just come up naturally when you are taking action. There is no way you can ONLY do inner game, look a girl in the eyes and think authentically that she wants you or that you are attractive, in fact it would be covering up your own authentic thoughts that tell you, you are unattractive and not confident. Maybe listen to the thoughts, take action to become more confident. And then naturally you will have good inner game. 

The "authentic" thought you have that tell you that you are not attractive are not yours. They have been planted there.

Quote

I think it isn't bad to think you are unattractive. If you aren't in flow state, I can feel like that too, but in flow state, you naturally start to think you are him. You naturally start to assume girls are into you, like authentically, I don't create a thought in my mind that she wants me, it is like I feel that she wants me. And who says I am making it up? lol 

What happens if you are out of the flow state? Do you lose your confidence?

Quote

One more note: I do come from a background of spirituality and doing basic inner work already, so if you are highly traumatised or have some mental issues, like this wouldn't be enough of course! You would need medication, a therapist or psychiatric help etc. And only after that, take action, hope you get the point. 

 Average person is highly traumatised. Average guy who gets into pickup even more so.

 

This is not being critical of you taking action. By any means go for it. But you seem to lack understanding what innergame or real self esteem etc is about. The real confidence is not build upon something. Not upon your looks, not upon how much money you make or how many woman want you in the moment, or what is your current flow/momentum or how much action you are taking. Flow is basically an attempt to compensate for having low self esteem. "When I am not in state I am not acceptable and worthy, but when I reach it I am okay - works quite similiar with alcohol or drugs".

Edited 9 hours ago by Valach

[Olaf]

@Valach flow is what confidence is, don't misinterpret me. Flow = confidence. Nobody that is not in a flow state is 100% confident. Nobody wakes up in the morning and is 100% confident, this is literally all RSD teaching is. I don't know if you have listened to Owen's course, but it literally talks about this, where you have to warm up, get into flow and momentum, you even see how the first few approaches go shit and then later at night it goes well. If you wake up in the morning and you directly open the hardest set and it goes well, then go teach your own course on inner game, I think many guys would want it over the RSD teachings, but I simply don't believe in such fairytales, it sounds like a bunch of BS and escaping the work that is required. 

[Valach]

1 minute ago, Olaf said:

@Valach flow is what confidence is, don't misinterpret me. Flow = confidence. Nobody that is not in a flow state is 100% confident. Nobody wakes up in the morning and is 100% confident, this is literally all RSD teaching is. I don't know if you have listened to Owen's course, but it literally talks about this, where you have to warm up, get into flow and momentum, you even see how the first few approaches go shit and then later at night it goes well. If you wake up in the morning and you directly open the hardest set and it goes well, then go teach your own course on inner game, I think many guys would want it over the RSD teachings, but I simply don't believe in such fairytales, it sounds like a bunch of BS and escaping the work that is required. 

I actually have the old RSD course (I think it was Hotseat at Home), so I'm familiar with the concepts they teach.

Where I think we disagree is on what self-esteem actually is.

To me, genuine self-esteem isn't confidence that comes from approaching women, getting results, or being in a certain state. It's the ability to accept yourself regardless of what state you're currently in.

If you wake up feeling grumpy, anxious, or mentally exhausted after a long day of work, you're still okay. You don't immediately feel the need to escape into a different emotional state before you can accept yourself. That's a much deeper issue than game.

The reason I keep pushing back is that your framework still ties your sense of self to external evidence. If you're approaching, opening, in flow, and getting positive reactions, then you feel confident. If those things disappear, what happens to that confidence?

That's exactly what toxic shame tends to do. It says, "I'm not enough as I am, but if I collect enough external proof, I can finally feel okay."

To me, that's the same pattern you see in other areas of life. If you talked to a very Stage Orange businessman about self-love, he might say, "Show me your bank account and then I'll tell you whether self-love works." The metric simply changes—from money, to women, to status—but the underlying mechanism is the same: using external achievements to regulate your self-worth.

None of this means approaching is bad. Exposure can be incredibly valuable. I just don't think it creates self-esteem. At best, it can increase confidence in a specific skill. Genuine self-esteem is something much more unconditional than that.

[Miguel1]

2 hours ago, Valach said:

Average person is highly traumatised. Average guy who gets into pickup even more so.

Correct.

[bazera]

3 hours ago, Valach said:

Average guy who gets into pickup even more so.

Why? 

[Valach]

21 minutes ago, bazera said:

Why? 

Because pickup is shame-based industry. It holds this mindset of "there is something inherently wrong with me and if I work hard enough I can overcome it and get the reward (woman)". Shame comes from trauma - and it causes a lot of issues around self esteem, socializing and dating in general.

I have never met a person in my life who was drawn into pickup and I would consider this person "reasonably healthy" - I met some guys who did a lot of inner work to move closer to such a point, but they started elsewhere.

That is not me shitting on pickup guys. That's just what I observed. It is an industry as a whole that just attracts traumatized people. I, myself, am full of trauma.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Valach

[LordFall]

For sure. A lot of people who have delusional confidence live in delusions and don't get results or get humbled by smashing face first into reality.

Inner game and true confidence come from proven competence. 

[Valach]

15 minutes ago, LordFall said:

For sure. A lot of people who have delusional confidence live in delusions and don't get results or get humbled by smashing face first into reality.

Inner game and true confidence come from proven competence. 

That is precisely the myth shame keeps on telling you. You were born with true confidence, you lost it along the way. And it was not lack of woman in your life that caused it. I mean it could have been if the woman lacking in your life was your mother

Edited 2 hours ago by Valach

[Ulax]

4 hours ago, Valach said:

Because pickup is shame-based industry. It holds this mindset of "there is something inherently wrong with me and if I work hard enough I can overcome it and get the reward (woman)". Shame comes from trauma - and it causes a lot of issues around self esteem, socializing and dating in general.

I have never met a person in my life who was drawn into pickup and I would consider this person "reasonably healthy" - I met some guys who did a lot of inner work to move closer to such a point, but they started elsewhere.

That is not me shitting on pickup guys. That's just what I observed. It is an industry as a whole that just attracts traumatized people. I, myself, am full of trauma.

I get the ideas you have with regards to this.

But you can't skip spiral stages. 

[Valach]

12 minutes ago, Ulax said:

I get the ideas you have with regards to this.

But you can't skip spiral stages. 

This is not a spiral stage. This is a trauma I am talking about. People who had really good parents and childhood do not feel drawn to it and it is not because they are more evolved.

[Raze]

You objectively can change inner game without infield approaches unless you think no one improves inner game who doesn’t approach.

[Ulax]

Just now, Valach said:

This is not a spiral stage. This is a trauma I am talking about. People who had really good parents and childhood do not feel drawn to it and it is not because they are more evolved.

It is a spiral stage. Orange is about personal effectiveness. A large part of trauma is lack of effectiveness.

[Valach]

11 minutes ago, Ulax said:

It is a spiral stage. Orange is about personal effectiveness. A large part of trauma is lack of effectiveness.

You do not have to go through pickup to integrate healthy orange. Spiral Dynamics describes developmental values, while trauma describes nervous system and attachment patterns. Someone can be highly Orange and deeply traumatized, or relatively healed without being particularly Orange.

[Ulax]

1 minute ago, Valach said:

You do not have to go through pickup to integrate healthy orange. Spiral Dynamics describes developmental values, while trauma describes nervous system and attachment patterns. Someone can be highly Orange and deeply traumatized, or relatively healed without being particularly Orange.

I disagree.

Unless you integrate stage orange well you will be in a state of trauma.

[Valach]

3 minutes ago, Ulax said:

I disagree.

Unless you integrate stage orange well you will be in a state of trauma.

If trauma is just a lack of Orange, how do you explain high-performing CEOs, elite athletes or successful pickup coaches who openly struggle with anxiety, addiction, perfectionism or insecure attachment? They seem highly Orange while also being clearly traumatized. Conversely, plenty of emotionally secure people have little interest in achievement or optimization.

Sleeping with a lot of woman is not going to cure any wound inside of you. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Valach

[Ulax]

3 minutes ago, Valach said:

If trauma is just a lack of Orange, how do you explain high-performing CEOs, elite athletes or successful pickup coaches who openly struggle with anxiety, addiction, perfectionism or insecure attachment? They seem highly Orange while also being clearly traumatized. Conversely, plenty of emotionally secure people have little interest in achievement or optimization.

Sleeping with a lot of woman is not going to cure any wound inside of you. 

I'm confused. Where did I say trauma is just a lack of orange?

And it will cure some wounds