How did the ( Illusion ) the sense of separation start?

[Mellowmarsh]

Just now, Sugarcoat said:

I was feeling funny, truly no hostility here, because you were snarky so it inspired it in me

Okay, I’ll take snarky. No problem. Have a lovely day Sugarcoat. 🙂

[Sugarcoat]

1 minute ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Okay, I’ll take snarky. No problem. Have a lovely day Sugarcoat. 🙂

You too : D

Edited Wednesday at 04:54 AM by Sugarcoat

[Mellowmarsh]

Fiction is my confession. 📖 

[Mellowmarsh]

9 hours ago, James123 said:

Just close your eyes, and literally think these thoughts what you say above, try to see them, really deeply look at them, but not as trying or looking just be aware of them. 

Can you really be sure that what they are? Any thoughts, including word of "any thoughts".

Good point, J
While nobody is experiencing or having a thought, the content of the thought is what carries the “I”.
Believing that this thought-content has an actual existence is the illusion.
Similarly, the illusion of a separate self arises when you take ownership of a particular experience through the thought “my” or “mine.”

[Breakingthewall]

21 hours ago, Grateful Dead said:

That is not how I see it. From my perspective, God has nothing to do with the dream. God is real and eternally unchanging.

I view it this way: the dream came into existence, so to speak, through God's creation (you and I), which wanted to cut itself off from God in order to become the Source itself, and thus be separate from and independent of God. You could also say that the dream was created to escape the infinite, structureless unity of God.

I don't think that there is a god and a dream, you could say that there is absolute unlimited being and that's the source of form because the form emanates from the unlimited always, it's the unlimited manifested. The unlimited doesn't want it, it's inevitable. It's not a creation, it's the necessary emanation of the unlimited. If the unlimited "wants" it would be limited. 

21 hours ago, Grateful Dead said:

You cannot compare it to this world; yet, in comparison to this world, this world is unreal, an illusion, a fleeting dream. 

As I see this world is the reality, could be another form of reality, but there are in the same level of reality. Being human we get lost in our dense structure and we can open it, but the reality is the same, only the level of openess changes. 

21 hours ago, Grateful Dead said:

don't mind it when someone argues against me. It allows me to refine my perspective and helps me internalize it more deeply. And if there happens to be a gap or a flaw in my view, I want to know about it.

Same, that's why I talk here, not to convince people but to refine my perspective and mental structure. I do because a certain structure allows the real openess. It's not important knowing, what is important is that our mental structure is not a hindrance, and this is not easy

[Grateful Dead]

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

absolute unlimited being and that's the source

That's basically what I mean by God.

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

source of form because the form emanates from the unlimited always, it's the unlimited manifested. The unlimited doesn't want it, it's inevitable. It's not a creation, it's the necessary emanation of the unlimited.

From my perspective, form cannot truly exist, since form is always limited; it has a beginning and an end. True reality is infinitely unlimited, and therefore everything that truly exists can only be of the same nature, and thus also indefinable and boundless

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I do because a certain structure allows the real openess. It's not important knowing, what is important is that our mental structure is not a hindrance, and this is not easy

Yes, that's exactly how I see it too. In my view, your thought system is extremely important for opening the mind. And that's why I don't care what kind of structure you have, as long as it's based on your own experience and works for you. That's why I'm so convinced by my system, because when I found a way to mentally structure what I experienced and learned how to work with it, it unlocked my mind in a way that even psychedelics couldn't.

I’m curious, what exactly is it about the fact that I view the world as an illusion that you perceive as an hindrance? 

I’ve already told you what I perceive as an obstacle in your perspective, namely, the danger, so to speak, of seeking the unlimited within the limited, and thereby only getting stuck even deeper in that very limitation.

[Mellowmarsh]

Only the limited is known. 

 

The “sense of self” occurs as a reflexive recursive thought that is directed back upon itself existing only in your internal world. The “sense of self” is limited and does not exist in the physical, tangible universe outside of your awareness.

So you can’t even say anything about what is unlimited or infinite or God, these concepts are simply more thoughts which are limited. 
 

The illusion starts when you learn to speak and think in a subject-object kind of way. For example: the illusion of a “separate sense of self” arises when you take ownership of a particular experience through the thought “my” or “mine” 

Theres something that knows every thought but that something cannot know anything that is not a thought, or other than thought, because this knowing knows nothing outside of it’s own mental creation, which is limited.

So what is this something aware of and knows every thought ? The answer is unknowable, because the known knows nothing.
 

 

[VeganAwake]

5 hours ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Only the limited is known. 

 

The “sense of self” occurs as a reflexive recursive thought that is directed back upon itself existing only in your internal world. The “sense of self” is limited and does not exist in the physical, tangible universe outside of your awareness.

So you can’t even say anything about what is unlimited or infinite or God, these concepts are simply more thoughts which are limited. 
 

The illusion starts when you learn to speak and think in a subject-object kind of way. For example: the illusion of a “separate sense of self” arises when you take ownership of a particular experience through the thought “my” or “mine” 

Theres something that knows every thought but that something cannot know anything that is not a thought, or other than thought, because this knowing knows nothing outside of it’s own mental creation, which is limited.

So what is this something aware of and knows every thought ? The answer is unknowable, because the known knows nothing.
 

 

Unknowing is similar to not taking a position on a topic but still being engaged.

Similar to watching the NFL without having a team. It allows a big picture focus instead of getting tunnel vision on teams and players. 

But its also not denying the role of the players and teams. 

We aren't trying to crucify or demonize this "sense of self", we are just watching it, seeing how it labels and takes ownership. Shining a light on it to see if it's actually real

[VeganAwake]

Is it more that just an identification with thinking?

Does it create a physical experience in the body and what is that experience?

[VeganAwake]

 

 

[Mellowmarsh]

3 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Is it more that just an identification with thinking?

Does it create a physical experience in the body and what is that experience?

Thinking and knowing thought is a unitary experience within a self-aware human mind which is temporary.

Self-awareness, the sense of “I exist” arises and falls in multiple waves that seamlessly stitch together to form the sensation of continuity as an aggregate whole totality. This self-awareness is not only conscious of itself it’s conscious of everything else that can be conceptualised. 

This aggregate has no knowable start or end because the sense of self-awareness appearing within the totality is only an illusion of the senses that appears as the sense of “ I exist” .. and that which can appear can also disappear, so it is a very convincing hallucination of the brain that nature uses as a useful survival tool for the human species. 

 

[Mellowmarsh]

4 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Is it more that just an identification with thinking?

Does it create a physical experience in the body and what is that experience?

The experience is shocking and horrible for consciousness… here’s why ⬇️

I strongly advise people to watch this video because it’s a raw truth that most humans can’t seem to stomach too well.

 

 

[Joseph Maynor]

The problem I have with this take is -- whose illusion of separation?  

Edited 21 hours ago by Joseph Maynor

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

whose illusion of separation?  

Take a plunge into the Infinite Void of Everything and you will sea.

[Mellowmarsh]

9 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

The problem I have with this take is -- whose illusion of separation?  

The problem is the ( I ) concept. No such ( I ) has ever been seen. There’s no entity called I , except in this conception, which is empty, and knows nothing of its emptiness because there’s simply no one there to be aware. 

[Mellowmarsh]

9 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Take a plunge into the Infinite Void of Everything and you will sea.

The “I” is truly only a thought. It is an illusion. A superb illusion. This “I” can be searched for but never found in the real world. This truth has been there all the time, right out in the open.
 

When sea- in happens, clarity begins. Happy deepities. 
 

Deep pitys.

Edited 10 hours ago by Mellowmarsh

[Mellowmarsh]

11 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

whose illusion of separation?  

Everything that kills me makes me feel alive.

Do whatever you love and let it kill you.

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

On 4/6/2026 at 9:57 AM, Grateful Dead said:

From my perspective, form cannot truly exist, since form is always limited; it has a beginning and an end. True reality is infinitely unlimited,

It depends how you see it. A determined form has an end, but if you see form as permanent change thats happening, it hasn't end, one form ends and other begins. 

On 4/6/2026 at 9:57 AM, Grateful Dead said:

I’m curious, what exactly is it about the fact that I view the world as an illusion that you perceive as an hindrance? 

I’ve already told you what I perceive as an obstacle in your perspective, namely, the danger, so to speak, of seeking the unlimited within the limited, and thereby only getting stuck even deeper in that very limitation

I see that your perspective is similar than Ramana maharshi perspective. 

For both of them, reality is absolute being, or rather, the consciousness of being. What they call Sat Chit Ananda. Shiva, the pure, radiant, immutable being.

Ramana was enamored with that; for him, that was everything, and everything else was illusion. But for me, that is just being conscious of the fact of being. There is still a closure, which is why Ramana (and you) describe form as illusion.

The fact of being is obviously immutable, but it is, let's say, a flat dimension. There is a lack of openness to the profound dimension, to the living nature of reality. Continuing with Hindu terminology, Shakti, or Kali. The creative and absolutely living character of reality. For me, Ramana has fallen in love with one dimension while denying another; when you read him, you notice that lets say limitation. It's not he's not enlightened or anything, it's that he's totally open to one aspect and the other doesn't exist for him.

As I see openess means be open to both aspects of reality and see them as inseparable, both are one. Creative power is not an illusion, it's the essential character of reality, the inevitable manifestation of the unlimited. Absolute being opens your mind like wide dimension, unlimited in wide direction, unlimited creation opens your heart in the dimension of depth. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Leo Gura]

Infinity/God has no start or end.

Infinity never starts! That's the Beauty of Infinity. That's how God solved the problem of getting something from nothing. Infinity is the one and only thing that doesn't need a start and doesn't have an end.

Edited 5 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Grateful Dead]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It depends how you see it. A determined form has an end, but if you see form as permanent change thats happening, it hasn't end, one form ends and other begins. 

Yes, from my perspective, everything in the realm of form is determined. Life unfolds freely and independently of changes in form. To me, form is what prevents us from clearly perceiving this aliveness, it is a distraction. Reality is complete; it does not change, it only expands. I distinguish between change and extension.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

For both of them, reality is absolute being, or rather, the consciousness of being. What they call Sat Chit Ananda. Shiva, the pure, radiant, immutable being. 

Ramana was enamored with that; for him, that was everything, and everything else was illusion.

Yes correct. 

I’m also enamored with it, how could I not be? Once you have tasted it, the world is dry, a desert.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The fact of being is obviously immutable, but it is, let's say, a flat dimension

What do you mean by a flat dimension? To me, that is precisely where the infinite depth of being lies.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

There is a lack of openness to the profound dimension, to the living nature of reality.

I believe that is a misconception on your part. The difference is that I do not perceive living reality outside of myself in the world, but deep within, at the core of being.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

For me, Ramana has fallen in love with one dimension while denying another; when you read him, you notice that limitation .

I haven't studied Ramana deeply enough; when I have time, I'll delve deeper into it.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Real openess means be open to both aspects of reality and see them as inseparable, both are one.

For me, true openness means letting go of what is limited, and then only the one reality remains.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Creative power is not an illusion, it's the essential character of reality, the inevitable manifestation of the unlimited. Absolute being opens your mind like wide dimension, unlimited in wide direction, unlimited creation opens your heart in the dimension of depth. 

I don't deny the beauty which is the creative power of reality. You are creation. The greatest gift, pure love, absolute perfection. Creation unfolds within my mind in such unfathomable glory that I simply forget the world. By contrast, the world then seems like a fleeting dream.